[RHat]

Again, it can seem that way with a ridiculously narrow view of what "balanced" is.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see how a view of balance can be defined to be sufficiently broad that getting something for 22% of the appropriate cost can be considered to be balance.

And it was, I think, earlier in this thread that someone brought up in this very thread.  In any case, the actual fact is that it doesn't much matter what was in the prior editions, especially as it is not being granted that they were balanced.  And the Magic attribute, like all attributes, in the past had a much smaller impact on any given roll, yes?  Creating your "spell pool", or whatever it was, rather than adding to every single Sorcery and Conjuring roll?

[All4BigGuns]

I'm sorry, but I cannot see how a view of balance can be defined to be sufficiently broad that getting something for 22% of the appropriate cost can be considered to be balance.

You're also completely ignoring the time to acquire the Force 6 focus and the monetary cost of buying it--only considering the karma cost.  You obviously know the information, but seemingly refuse to consider it. Roll it all together with the fact that it is in fact a temporary boost that isn't available if, for whatever reason, the character doesn't have access to it at a particular moment and it is perfectly fine.

[RHat]

Actually, I AM considering the monetary cost, on the basis of a Karma-to-Nuyen exchange (specifically so that an actual comparison can be drawn).  And if we bring time into play, those Magic increases will require 57 weeks, and if we assume Arcana+Intuition 9 we're looking at 9 months total for the initiation - meaning that it still takes a great deal less time to get the Focus than to actually get your Magic up there.  As a temporary boost to the rolls, it's more or less fine as it is given the difficulty of getting it - but as an actual Magic increase it simply wouldn't be balanced.  No way should it be possible for a character fresh out of chargen to summon a Force 9 spirit or apply 9 hits to a Flamethrower for only Stun Drain.

[All4BigGuns]

There's your problem. Don't take the monetary cost into account using karma conversion ratios. It takes quite a while to save that much money with various expenses and other upgrades.

It's just a quick, yet temporary, path to a bit more power, and while it can still be used after getting those additional points of Magic through Initiation and what-not, it's still temporary and thus needs to give more to be worth being temporary.

[RHat]

What "other upgrades"?  This IS the monetary sink for a Mage, pure and simple - and any upgrade, at all, for a mage is contingent on Karma.  If I don't use the exchange, I'm frankly forced to consider the cash largely meaningless - it takes about 36 multipliers based on the table (which is ridiculous, but still) to get that much cash.  So, if the group is going on runs against a highest opposing pool of, say, 16, that's 4 multipliers per run there.  If we then assume they have about another 2.5 multipliers per run on average, that's 6.5.  It takes 6 runs, at which point they've brought in ~117k - leaving 9k for other expenses.  It takes that 6 runs, spending Karma on nothing else, to get enough Karma for this.  More realistically, the Mage would save the nuyen over time while making other Karma expenditures - so let's take it to 10 runs, which brings us to 195k and 60 Karma (note that that's much more cash than the 2000:1 ratio would suggest).  Enough to get the Power Focus and have a decent chunk of karma and nuyen left over, or enough to raise Magic once and have little Karma let, and a whole bunch of cash with nothing to spend it on.

And Power Foci, and in fact Foci in general, are NOT temporary.  If it gets taken, the player can and WILL track it down.

[All4BigGuns]

The Magician can get just as much use out of a new gun as anyone else. In fact, it would behoove him to be fairly decent with one so as not to have to rely entirely on his spells and spirits. Not to mention getting more lifestyles and/or better lifestyles and replacing 'used up' fake SINs or getting more/better ones. Basically, anything in the gear section aside from decks or implants is fair game for the Magician.

Nine thousand for other expenses out of six runs is not very much. It's fairly likely that more than that would be needed by that point.

While they 'track it down' they're doing so without the benefits it provides. It is still temporary even though it can be recovered.

[RHat]

If the Magician's NOT just spending on the Focus, that applies to Karma as much as it does Nuyen - if he's looking to be good with a gun, he has to spend Karma on that after all.  The first set of numbers are the absolute bare minimum to get it; it's not the realistic case.  If you're looking at notable expenditures other than the focus that has to be applied to both resources.

[All4BigGuns]

If the Magician's NOT just spending on the Focus, that applies to Karma as much as it does Nuyen - if he's looking to be good with a gun, he has to spend Karma on that after all.  The first set of numbers are the absolute bare minimum to get it; it's not the realistic case.  If you're looking at notable expenditures other than the focus that has to be applied to both resources.

You're just proving my point even more in applying the cost of other things to karma too. It's a temporary boost that takes a while to get the really high ratings, so it should give more. The rating 3 that is the best possible in character creation (while at the same time taking starting karma that could be used for other things) isn't that big of a boost.

[RHat]

A Power Focus is as temporary as the Decker's Deck, or the Riggers Sweet-Ass Van - sure you can try to take it away as a plot point, but if you do it as anything else it's your own fault the game gets completely derailed.  It doesn't fit any useful definition of temporary.

And I'm not proving your point; I am disproving your argument that cash was undervalued in the analysis; any time they're spending nuyen it's also a sink for Karma.

It gives a crapton of benefit for a very good value compared to the other routes for getting that benefit, but is sufficiently difficult to acquire and has a sufficient gap in utility (other benefits of raising Magic, benefits of initiation) that it is largely balanced - certainly, it shouldn't offer GREATER benefit.  +3 dice to all Magical tasks is a pretty serious benefit out of chargen - +3 to all Summoning, Binding, Banishing, Spellcasting, Alchemy, Artificing...  It means that at Magic 6, with only 1 rank in the Magic skills you don't specialize in, you get 10 dice.  In the ones you do specialize in, you could go as high 19; it's even better for the generalist, who's trying to have decent ability at all magical tasks.

[All4BigGuns]

The Force 3 Power Focus is to the Magician (or Mystic Adept) what the Heavy Pistol or SMG is to the Street Sam with it being for ALL purposes. The Force 6 Power Focus would be equivalent to a Sport Rifle or Sniper Rifle (4 or 5 being the Assault Rifle).

[Reaver]

The Force 3 Power Focus is to the Magician (or Mystic Adept) what the Heavy Pistol or SMG is to the Street Sam with it being for ALL purposes. The Force 6 Power Focus would be equivalent to a Sport Rifle or Sniper Rifle (4 or 5 being the Assault Rifle).

assault cannon....

Force 6 is definitely an assault cannon.....

[All4BigGuns]

The Force 3 Power Focus is to the Magician (or Mystic Adept) what the Heavy Pistol or SMG is to the Street Sam with it being for ALL purposes. The Force 6 Power Focus would be equivalent to a Sport Rifle or Sniper Rifle (4 or 5 being the Assault Rifle).

assault cannon....

Force 6 is definitely an assault cannon.....

No, that would be once the stuff for Force 9+ foci come out. (7 and 8 being the machine guns that use Heavy Weapons skill)

[RHat]

The Force 3 Power Focus is to the Magician (or Mystic Adept) what the Heavy Pistol or SMG is to the Street Sam with it being for ALL purposes. The Force 6 Power Focus would be equivalent to a Sport Rifle or Sniper Rifle (4 or 5 being the Assault Rifle).

It is plenty powerful as just a dice bonus.