[Elizara Dane]

So, when you use the Multiple Attacks (196) action it states that you add modifiers and then split your dice pools, yet with casting spells "...Since the
modifiers per spell may be different, they are applied after you split the dice pool"(281). The current attitude regarding combat casting at my table is one of mild disdain so one of our players thought to remedy this by creating the PC I like to call "Stumpy the Chimera Mage".

The basic premise of the character was a Dwarf Mage with a heavy focus on draining well, a specialization in combat spells, a F2 spellcasting(combat) Foci and a Shark mentor spirit for a final +2 to combat spells. So, on every one of his turns he would spend a complex action to split his spellcasting(5)+magic(5) pool  into 5 pools of 2 dice as  per the rules for casting multiple spells in the same action. He would then add the 6 dice worth of modifiers to each pool for a total of five pools of 8. Then came the pain train sequence of force 5 Lighting Bolts, Acid Streams and Flamethrowers as needed to adequately pulp mooks up. Afterwards he would take his large drain pool and soak 2 drain five times. Even with a dice pool of 8 he was incredibly effective with the murderin'.

This seems a bit game breaking. Has anyone else encountered any sort of pool splitting like this? Have we seen any clarifications to this rule that I might have missed?

[Medicineman]

You can cast only 1 Attack spell per Iniphase in SR5
Them's the Rules
It can't be explained ingame but thats the GMs problem not CGLs.

HokaHey
medicineman

[Shinobi Killfist]

Hmmn

A couple questions come up.  I don't have the time to look this up.

1.  Did they get rid of the increased drain for multi-casting spells from 4e and just have it for making it a simple action now?
2.  In other multiple attack methods the limit of targets is 1/2 the skill involved, so a 5 spellcasting would be 2-3 targets/spells I forget how they round.  Is there another spellcasting exception for this?

If it can e done, its a loophole.  Generally it wont be a problem but when people exploit it, it can become one. It seems to be more of a talk with the player situation that fix the rules one to me,

[Elizara Dane]

I cannot find where that rule is written, could you give me a page number?

With a respectful shamble because I cant dance
El

Hmmn

A couple questions come up.  I don't have the time to look this up.

1.  Did they get rid of the increased drain for multi-casting spells from 4e and just have it for making it a simple action now?
2.  In other multiple attack methods the limit of targets is 1/2 the skill involved, so a 5 spellcasting would be 2-3 targets/spells I forget how they round.  Is there another spellcasting exception for this?

If it can e done, its a loophole.  Generally it wont be a problem but when people exploit it, it can become one. It seems to be more of a talk with the player situation that fix the rules one to me,

1. As far as we've all read its been folded into reckless casting
2. Multiple spells is based off Magic. "The number of spells you can cast simultaneously is limited to your Magic attribute" (281)

[Mirikon]

Actually, Medicineman, you can cast multiple spells in the same round, if you split your dice pool (Casting Multiple Spells). However, if you use Reckless Casting, you can use your full dice pool for both spells. Turns the spell into a Simple instead of Complex action for +3 drain, and specifically says you can use the second simple action to cast another spell (also +3 drain). SR5, pg 281.

As for the original post, I would say he is acting perfectly within the rules. It sounds to me that he's focused everything into combat spells and drain resistance. And while that will make him very effective at firing off combat spells, it does leave holes elsewhere. And that's where you hit him. The price of overspecialization is glaring holes in your defenses against things not in your specialty. Especially when the group gets to a situation where 'Multiple Simultaneous Fireballs' isn't an option.

Remember, they got Capone on Tax Evasion, not Bootlegging. If players leave glaring holes, 'encourage' them to fix it by exploiting them.

[Xenon]

Reckless casting 2 spells in an action phase (which is allowed) is not the same as also being allowed to cast two combat spells (or casting an attack spell and shooting a gun) in the same action phase (you are not allowed to take two attack actions in an action phase)

[Medicineman]

Reckless casting 2 spells in an action phase (which is allowed) is not the same as also being allowed to cast two combat spells (or casting an attack spell and shooting a gun) in the same action phase (you are not allowed to take two attack actions in an action phase)

THATs exactly what I meant
Even though you can cast (f.E.) to Magic Fingers or 2 Levitate Spells in 1 IP ,You can't cast 2 Manabolts

with 2 Dances in 1 Post
Medicineman

[Valashar]

Only 1 attack per action phase isn't limited to magic, so it's onto something that you would find only in the magic chapter. The general rule is that each action phase, a character can only perform one attack action. This is defined as any action that requires the target(s) to perform a defense test of any kind. This does not really limit a mage tossing out multiple spells, though because there are so many combinations out there.

Mana Barrier + Heal + Invisibility (+ 2nd Invisibility)... for when you or one of your teammates is seriously f-ed up and you need a safe place and time to get them patched up.
Improved Reflexes + Combat Sense + Armor ... a first turn combination for getting yourself pumped for the fight, possibly paired with some use of edge to get it off before the shooters act.

[Mirikon]

Respectfully, you're wrong, Medicineman and Xenon.

Casting Multiple Spells: Some magicians have the mental discipline to weave multiple threads of mana into multiple spells at once. You can attempt to cast multiple spells simultaneously, in the same action, even at different targets.

Emphasis mine. You can cast multiple spells, including multiple combat spells, as part of the same action, even with different targets, just as you can attack multiple targets with weapons by splitting your pool, as you're still taking only one attack action that round.

[Xenon]

I see what you mean.

Yes you can cast multiple spells at different targets.
That might or might mean you can cast multiple ATTACK SPELLS at different targets.
Consider that targeted spells does not have to be attacks...

You might be correct, but it is not clear from the line of text you just quoted. At least not to me.

[Mirikon]

Nowhere in the rules does it say you cannot, unless you have something to cite of your own?

The build, as it stands, is rules-legal. And I seriously doubt, with that much investment in combat spellcasting ability, that the mage will be much good at anything else, which is a major liability for any player with a GM who knows how to do more than just throw waves of mooks at someone.

[Lobo]

Page 164
Multiple Attacks
A character may use a Free Action to attack multiple targets
in a single action (see Multiple Attacks, p. 196) by
splitting their dice pool. This action must be combined
with a Fire Weapon Action, Throw Weapon Action, Melee
Attack Action, Reckless Spellcasting, or Cast Spell Action.

You may not take multiple attack ACTIONS in the same ACTION PHASE.

So, if a mage uses the Multiple Attacks Free Action and the Cast Spell Complex Action, and splits his dice pool, he can cast two fireballs at two different targets - the same way that a samurai can do the same thing with a gun.

If a mage chooses to use the Reckless Spellcasting Simple Action twice in one turn, then only ONE of those spells can be an attack.  Note that the spirit of that rule is that it doesn't have to be a "Combat" spell - so using Fling to throw a grenade at someone, or even using a Decrease Attribute spell would be considered an "attack".

That last part is VERY loosely defined, and is going to have to be up to you and your GM - I believe the "official" quote is "If it is something that your character would consider an attack on him if an enemy mage did it to him, then you can't do two of them in the same Action Phase."

Next up, about applying the "modifiers" before or after splitting dice pools.

Foci and Mentor Spirits are not "modifiers". 

Mentor Spirits "add +2 dice to tests"

Spellcasting Foci "add their force to your Spellcasting dice pool"

Specialization "adds 2 dice to any test made for that
skill when the specialization comes into play."
category as the focus."

Modifiers refer specifically to "Ranged Attack Modifiers" - i.e  environmental, situational, and wound (page 173) - obviously recoil modifiers would be included, but since spells don't incur recoil, this would be zero.

So your character would get 16 dice, divided by 5, and then subtract those modifiers.
If you character had the same 16 dice and shot someone, they would subtract those modifiers and THEN divide by 5.

Why they make that distinction I do not know, if you want my opinion, for what it is worth, it should be the same, regardless, since I can fire two guns at two different targets, which means that they could be at two different ranges, and so the modifiers would be different - but that is beside the point.  Personally, in my games I make Multiple Attacks, regardless of the source split dice pools and subtract modifiers the same.

[Xenon]

Yeah. I stand corrected.

You can cast ONE complex action combat spell and split your pool against multiple targets and they get to roll individual defense rolls (or you can cast ONE complex action combat AoE spell against multiple targets, don't split your pool and targets don't get to roll a defense roll).

You can cast ONE simple action reckless combat spell and split your pool against multiple targets and they get to roll individual defense rolls (or you can cast ONE simple action reckless combat AoE spell against multiple targets, don't split your pool and targets don't get to roll a defense roll).
- You can not take another attack action (like shooting your gun or casting another reckless combat spell) on your other simple action this combat phase.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Reckless casting 2 spells in an action phase (which is allowed) is not the same as also being allowed to cast two combat spells (or casting an attack spell and shooting a gun) in the same action phase (you are not allowed to take two attack actions in an action phase)

THATs exactly what I meant
Even though you can cast (f.E.) to Magic Fingers or 2 Levitate Spells in 1 IP ,You can't cast 2 Manabolts

with 2 Dances in 1 Post
Medicineman

Wow that is lame.  So if I want to shoot multiple people the targets are limited to gun skill/2, if I want to cast multiple spells it is magic not even magic/2. There is no reason to break off of the general rule they had for other multiple attacks. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

Nowhere in the rules does it say you cannot, unless you have something to cite of your own?

The build, as it stands, is rules-legal. And I seriously doubt, with that much investment in combat spellcasting ability, that the mage will be much good at anything else, which is a major liability for any player with a GM who knows how to do more than just throw waves of mooks at someone.

Really?  He is still tossing 10 dice for all other spells and if he had gone with a power focus instead of a combat spell focus it would have been 12 dice for everything.  That is hardly a weakness.  Heck it wouldn't be hard to throw together a build that rolls 15 dice for everything and 19 dice for combat spells with the same lame 8 dice for 6 spells insanity.