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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: <09-09-13/1250:19> »
The Missions rules are simple: The GM must be able to target the allergy with ease. We've stated several ways a GM can do so. Yes, a player can avoid those pitfalls, but it takes active effort. So what is the problem here? Are you arguing it is, despite these examples, not plausible that a Missions GM is capable of targetting a food allergy? If so, shouldn't you be telling Bull this?

You claim shopping checking labels, by the way. But do you honestly believe Stuffershack gives a rat's ass about what goes where? Not to mention cross-contamination, there's no way the Shadowrun Corps care about that when it comes to feeding the gutter trash that they only feed because it means they get money. A Johnson can offer food and yes, the party can refuse but the GM can then say "alright, he's insulted and you have -2 dice on the Negotiation test". The group gets hungry and probably either brought a snack or checks into a Stuffershack, this lets the GM decide the allergy player risks getting hit by their allergy, or if they do not eat, roll a die to see whether they are suffering from hunger pains. And the GM can simply roll a die at the start and see "well, you ate something bad and don't feel right, you're going to have a -2 for a few hours." Unless you have a High Lifestyle this isn't avoidable, with Middle you merely reduce the risk.

By the way, 2077?
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wepv

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« Reply #46 on: <09-09-13/1306:23> »
Chandra: the issue is the gm cannot target those allergies with ease WITHOUT taking time away from the mod. Yes, Johnson's can offer you food. And if you respond by going "yuk, no!" then sure thats a -2 (or more), but any gm who has a johnson offended when you say something like "Oh, thank you but I have a serious allegry to (insert thing) and need to watch what I eat."  is being an ass or there better be some very thoughtfully written motivations and back story for that johnson explaining why they are being irrational.

ZeConster

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« Reply #47 on: <09-09-13/1307:08> »
ZeCoster: Im not sure why you keep assuming that any of this takes in game time. Do the non-allergic players spend time in game buying food as part of missions? No, they don't. So why would the allergic guy need to? You seem insistent on making it look like I'm saying something I'm not.
You do remember saying this, right? (emphasis mine)
Allergy soy is a legit quality în a home game but somewhat questionable in SRM as tracking your eating habits is somewhat outside the scope of 4 hour mods.
YOU'RE the one who said Allergies to foodstuffs were "questionable" for Missions because tracking your eating habits would take up valuable play time.
Of course, then when I suggested something that wouldn't take up much time and not make the quality Free Karma™, you criticized it both for taking up time anyway, and for not allowing the player to take up play time with roleplaying their eating habits. I also proposed alternative methods to avoid the allergen (higher Lifestyle meaning more control over what you eat) without roleplaying, but you criticized those approaches as well.
You're basically saying that foodstuff Allergies are a bad idea for Missions because roleplaying your eating habits takes up too much time, while simultaneously shooting down suggestions that would make it NOT take up too much time. So the way I see it, saying this when I'm quoting you:
You seem insistent on making it look like I'm saying something I'm not.
Isn't because I'm actually trying to make it look like you're saying something you're not, it's just because your behavior is inconsistent.

Sendaz

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« Reply #48 on: <09-09-13/1325:14> »
Chandra: the issue is the gm cannot target those allergies with ease WITHOUT taking time away from the mod. Yes, Johnson's can offer you food. And if you respond by going "yuk, no!" then sure thats a -2 (or more), but any gm who has a johnson offended when you say something like "Oh, thank you but I have a serious allegry to (insert thing) and need to watch what I eat."  is being an ass or there better be some very thoughtfully written motivations and back story for that johnson explaining why they are being irrational.
I do agree that I doubt a Johnson would be offended if you mentioned a food allergy.

That said I do know a couple of French friends who seriously believe there is no such thing as a food allergy and would mock you for it, but that is about it.  They wouldn't force it on you, just shrug and think 'good, more for me'.
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wepv

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« Reply #49 on: <09-09-13/1328:05> »
True Ze, you are giving suggestions that dont take time. They do, however, make no sense and are just the GM deciding the player has had an incredible lapse of judgment and poisoned themselves. Which seems like BS.
If there is a simple way to have a food allergy come up in a game that doesnt involve the GM using fiat to tell the player they are eating poison and doesnt require npcs to act like irrational morons who hate you because you wont eat their poison, and it doesnt require the GM to take time away from the mod, sure its a legit allergy. But every suggestion so far requires the player to choose to either eat poison because the GM tells them they did or requires the NPCs to hate people that dont eat their food. I, as someone who has a food allergy in real life, can't come up with a situation that would apply that doesnt take a ton of set up. Home games are great places for these negatives, as they can be interesting and fun situations that require tough choices by the allergic player, but they are beyond the scope of Missions mods. My stance has not been inconsistent. It has been very simple and I'll restate it for you so there is no confusion:
Food allergies are not disadvantages that can be applied in SRMissions in a reasonable way and thus should not be allowed.

JackVII

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« Reply #50 on: <09-09-13/1331:50> »
Food allergies are not disadvantages that can be applied in SRMissions in a reasonable way and thus should not be allowed.
Take it up with Bull then.

Also, considering SR is a big dystopian dog-eat-dog world, I could easily see someone with a lackluster lifestyle routinely being exposed to their food-based allergen. Most proprietors at that lifestyle level are probably going to just lie about what's in the food.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #51 on: <09-09-13/1343:50> »
Chandra: the issue is the gm cannot target those allergies with ease WITHOUT taking time away from the mod. Yes, Johnson's can offer you food. And if you respond by going "yuk, no!" then sure thats a -2 (or more), but any gm who has a johnson offended when you say something like "Oh, thank you but I have a serious allegry to (insert thing) and need to watch what I eat."  is being an ass or there better be some very thoughtfully written motivations and back story for that johnson explaining why they are being irrational.
Targetting ANY non-direct-roll-influencing Negative Quality takes time away from the mod. Addiction, Allergy, Elf/Ork Poser, SINner (aside the taxes), Uncouth, Uneducated and Weak Immune System all take time to target and are all legal negative qualities The question is HOW MUCH time is taken. With some of these suggestions, targetting an allergy takes less than a minute and that's including the die roll.

My stance is simple as well: Food allergies are disadvantages that can be easily applied in Mission in a reasonable way and thus should be allowed. This stance has been supported by explanations on how your comparison to modern life, where companies actually have to upkeep their reputation, are flawed and do not blindly apply to SR5. The companies aren't producing food clearly marked as containing X, they aren't interested in preventing cross-contamination and the only way to not touch those ever is a High+ Lifestyle. As such, there's a number of ways a Missions GM can target a Food Allergy, the easiest  of all being "roll a die, unless you roll a hit you're suffering from your allergy for 2 hours from eating something contaminated."

Let me ask you a question, Sendaz: Do you really want to give the Johnson that information about you? ^_^
« Last Edit: <09-09-13/1345:56> by Michael Chandra »
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wepv

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« Reply #52 on: <09-09-13/1414:25> »
Chandra: All of those qualities, including allergy(other then food allergy) don't require the gm to force a player to do something. None of those involve a gm dictating the actions of the player. Most of them involve outside forces that alter how the character interacts with the world. They come up on their own no work required, and if the gm feels the player hasn't encountered them enough they can add those elements into the game and now they need to react to them. But telling a player what they are doing is not ok for the gm, especially in a Missions setting.

The die roll is BS. If I'm going to die from eating shellfish, I don't eat it or I wouldn't be here. Severe allergy shellfish doesn't mean a 66% chance of death when you show up to a mod or whenever the gm decides to roll(using your suggestion of roll a die, not a hit you are suffering from it). That's why all these suggestions of randomly suffering from your ingested allergy are dumb. They just shouldn't be allowed as disadvantages because either they aren't a disadvantage because the person who has it keeps it in check, or there are no people with these allergies because they are all dead since 66% of food is filled with deadly poison. Either way, not a disadvantage.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #53 on: <09-09-13/1428:42> »
Chandra: All of those qualities, including allergy(other then food allergy) don't require the gm to force a player to do something. None of those involve a gm dictating the actions of the player. Most of them involve outside forces that alter how the character interacts with the world. They come up on their own no work required, and if the gm feels the player hasn't encountered them enough they can add those elements into the game and now they need to react to them. But telling a player what they are doing is not ok for the gm, especially in a Missions setting.

The die roll is BS. If I'm going to die from eating shellfish, I don't eat it or I wouldn't be here. Severe allergy shellfish doesn't mean a 66% chance of death when you show up to a mod or whenever the gm decides to roll(using your suggestion of roll a die, not a hit you are suffering from it). That's why all these suggestions of randomly suffering from your ingested allergy are dumb. They just shouldn't be allowed as disadvantages because either they aren't a disadvantage because the person who has it keeps it in check, or there are no people with these allergies because they are all dead since 66% of food is filled with deadly poison. Either way, not a disadvantage.

Again, it's just not a big enough deal to get this worked up over (on either side), especially with an allergy. The only reason it gives points is so that it might possibly be taken--I don't see most players making their character allergic to something without getting something out of it.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #54 on: <09-09-13/1434:56> »
With all due respect, the offered suggestion is no less bullshit than your constant complaints both against the Quality and against any possible way of the GM making the quality impact the player. But hey, if the player wants to not eat, that's fine. Would you prefer me asking the player "Did you eat this morning? No? Why not?" then randomly determining whether they're currently starving? Sounds like a plenty fair approach if you're really insisting the GM cannot state the player has eaten something bad.

Besides, no work required and not forced upon the player? "Roll to see whether you piss off the Bouncer as you walk past him" is just as bad as "roll to see if you ate something bad". Targetting Elf/Ork Poser requires far more time than an allergy test and that at a mere 6 karma. Addictions require the player making clear to the GM he's getting his fix and the GM checking what that costs, this requires far more time than an allergy test. Checking when Uneducated might require the player to make a die roll requires far more GM time and even rolling time than an allergy check.

So if you want to claim bullshit, go right ahead but at that point I claim the right to claim bullshit regarding your attitude. Just because you WANT X, doesn't mean there's no decent arguments against X. Denying or ignoring them without proper support won't change any opinion here, all it does is make it seem as if you're unwilling to debate and are simply trying to push your own opinion through. Right now you don't sound to me like you actually believe it's not possible for a GM to target this fairly and not piss off the player, you more sound like you WANT it to be impossible because you're unwilling to admit any of your arguments might not be valid and your opinion might in fact not be supported enough to be convincing.

Aside from ignoring many counter-arguments and simply insisting a GM cannot target Quality X in a fair and short way despite any examples given to the contrary, I note you have not yet told Bull to explicitly forbid Food Allergies for Missions. If you really believed beyond a doubt that this should NOT be Missions legal period, rather than it being up to the Missions GMs to determine (as the rules state about character audits) and there being plenty support for it being okay and targettable, then you would have long ago gone off and posted in Bull's topic that Food Allergies should be explicitly forbidden. Since you, despite repeated urging, have no interest at doing so I see no use in debating with someone who doesn't just not listen, but also doesn't seem to actually believe in their own arguments enough to convince the guy that matters.

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Short summary: I see no reason to forbid Food Allergies for Missions, as long as it follows the requirements of being easy for the GM to introduce. The common examples listed in the rules seem perfectly fine, and with other ones and uncommon ones I'd simply check whether I consider them plausible and targettable. Any character who comes to me with an Allergy fitting the official requirements I will not fail when performing Character Audits. Seafood (including Krill) and Soy I consider Common and targettable, and thus will not forbid. I have seen no reliable arguments to the contrary that have withstood counter-argumentation and I do not think any player taking it will make objections when I target their negative Quality, as long as I do not do so beyond reason. They are perfectly according to the guidelines that the Missions temp FAQ has put forth, and I will not defy the official Missions and SR5 rules, as is my duty as Agent.
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JackVII

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« Reply #55 on: <09-09-13/1453:41> »
In a non-Missions game, I would absolutely introduce that boomerang fish throwing guy fromt he Muppets as a Prime Runner adversary.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #56 on: <09-09-13/1455:01> »
Yakuza Etiquette: Johnson wants you to prove you're decent by judging a Sushi contest. Refusal means losing a finger.
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