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Please Review House Rules for Upcoming 5E Game

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Crunch

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« Reply #15 on: <08-21-13/1151:32> »
The Grenade rule is a cinematic tweak - the grenade rules are imminentily realistic at this point and I have no problem with them - but I like to give my players a better chance at survival even if it makes the game a little more A-Team than Kandahar. It's not so much a leap as a run and jump for cover.

The touch spell thing is simply my call on the confusion involving touch attacks by RAW either
A) Mages make an unarmed attack that is resisted as an unarmed attack then a spellcasting roll that is resisted as a spell casting roll
or
B) Mages make an unarmed attack roll that is resistes as an unarmed attack roll then a spellcasting roll that is unresisted.
I don't have an opinion on the issue. The house rule cuts at least one roll out of the equation and functions more like a ranged indirect spell so the consistency should make it easier to learn.

And again the Cyberlimb change will only effect fringe and abusive cases anyway.

emsquared

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« Reply #16 on: <08-21-13/1157:28> »
Obviously I don't have a dog in this race which I'm glad for, and obviously you're not really interested in what people have to say about the rules you've already decided on, but cyberlimbs have their trade-offs (ESS loss, Social loss, only effective for 1 limb), and as long as someone isn't doing the AGI low(9) spread which you can stop by just saying "Nuh uh", you've instead invalidated an entire type of PC (which is not just a "fringe" PC, and even if it was, what is the value in not letting someone play what they want?) that is clearly meant to be a valid type of PC in the cyberpunk setting. Bad move.

Crunch

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« Reply #17 on: <08-21-13/1203:33> »
Obviously I don't have a dog in this race which I'm glad for, and obviously you're not really interested in what people have to say about the rules you've already decided on, but cyberlimbs have their trade-offs (ESS loss, Social loss, only effective for 1 limb), and as long as someone isn't doing the AGI low(9) spread which you can stop by just saying "Nuh uh", you've instead invalidated an entire type of PC (which is not just a "fringe" PC, and even if it was, what is the value in not letting someone play what they want?) that is clearly meant to be a valid type of PC in the cyberpunk setting. Bad move.

I'm actually listening - note that I've already changed one rule based on the comments here- but the only concept I've "invalidated" is the one where the final attribite is over aug max of natural attribute +4. Would the rule be more acceptable to you if it simply acknowledged the Aug max rather than limiting customization? Under this rule characters can still have really effective cyberlimbs, cyberlimbs are just no longer the be and end of augmentation

The problem with your trade offs is that one and two are equally valid for all cybernetic augmentation, in fact they have a larger or equal effect on any other equivalent augmentation.  As for 3 it's not even true, as Cyberlimb averaging doesn't work that way.

emsquared

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« Reply #18 on: <08-21-13/1209:32> »
... the only concept I've "invalidated" is the one where the final attribite is over aug max of natural attribute +4.
That wasn't how your rule originally read, I don't think that is unreasonable.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: <08-21-13/1210:08> »
Basing a houserule on a munchkin build is a bad idea when it also punishes more-balanced characters.  The Agi 1 character only has a running rate of 4 meters per combat turn, he's an utter slug that will die fast due to not being able to dive into cover and not be able to get away from grenades and such. On top of that, I'd simply not allow such an exploitive character.

This houserule, as you originally wrote it, means you can't have 4 Agility with two arms of 9, which is actually a character that pays a decent price for the +5 Agi on his firing. If he doesn't boost his Strength of 4 above this number, he's paying 109k and 2 essence for the 9/4 limbs and an average Agility of 6. Instead, he could have gotten an overall 7 Agility with 69.75k and 0.75 essence. So he pays a significant price in nuyen and essence for those extra 2 dice and extra capacity, loses 1 dice on Sneaking and Palming and loses 3 effective Agility for calculating movement rates.

Instead, such a character would have 2 7/4 arms, which cost him 89k and 2 essence for 7 Agility on weapon checks, 6 Agility on Sneaking+Palming and 4 Agility for movement rate. For 69.75k and 0.75 essence he'd have the same 7 Agility on weapon checks, 7 Agility on Sneak+Palming and 7 Agility for movement rate. This means he's paying 20k and 1.25 essence, as well as 1 die lost on average-agility checks and 3 agility lost on weakest-limb-or-natural-attribute aspects.

His benefits in return are having spare Capacity which also costs nuyen to use, the option to spend 18k on after chargen to be able to get +2 Armor total from Cyberarmor, and +2 physical condition monitor boxes which are only worth it when an enemy does Physical Damage rather than Stun Damage. Meanwhile, chances are he gets targetted by Stun Attacks because he's an obvious Street Samurai, what with the cyberlimbs. And if he ever decides to spend karma to raise his Agility to 5, he ends up making his limbs a waste of investment since now they only have +2, whereas the Used Muscle Toner 3 would still give him +3 at that point.

Perhaps you took all that into account already, and still consider cyberlimbs viable options when it comes to raising attributes. I, however, think this is already a rather painful choice in the short term, given the alternative which is cheaper and better in many ways, including cost and essence, and as such very likely outweighs the few benefits the Cyberlimb gives instead. In the long term, the character is only destroying itself because now if it gets any general augmentations or raises its Agility or Strength, it's devaluating the use of its Cyberlimbs and making the decision to get them even more an utter waste. You don't replace Muscle Replacement/Augmentation/Toner when you raise your natural attributes since they keep adding the bonus, however these cyberlimbs would have to be replaced.

And again Agility DOES NOT EFFECT THE PHYSICAL LIMIT IN ANY WAY, so can you stop bringing it up in discussions about a system most easily abused in terms of agility.
I am fully aware Agility does not calculate into the Physical Limit. However, Strength does. I also mentioned the phsyical limit as only one of multiple downsides. Not to mention you brought up both Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner to begin with when comparing price. As such, there was no reason whatsoever to shout.

Leaving the shouting aside, since you want to focus on the agility-abuse I left out melee in the first part of my post, since that'd involve Strength and thus the Phsyical Limit.

----

I decided to try debating with you again, which I stopped doing after you claimed you couldn't see how it was insulting to suggest I'd throw a hissfit over not getting what I want from a GM. I wanted to see whether you were actually telling the truth about not having intended to insult me. In your post, you have treated me with contempt by telling me to look at a rule again, suggesting I haven't paid attention to the rules and don't know what I'm talking about. You could have simply gone "my problem is that with the averaging rule, the Agi 1(9) guy has 3 Agility for most tests". Instead, you chose to be confrontational by suggesting I don't know the rules well enough to provide meaningful input into the debate.

On top of that, you began to shout while you were the one who talked about both Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation. It's rather unfair to bring Strength into the equation and then complain I shouldn't bring up the Physical Limit. Now I consider you a person of decent common sense. So since you brought up Strength to begin with, I assume you knew fully well you had no right to criticize me for mentioning the Physical Limit. Which means you used it as a mere excuse to shout at me, rather than sincerely venting frustration. This is supported by you assuming I don't know what I'm talking about, rather than asking for clarification in a way as I have done above.

Given the extreme way you are treating me and expressing a condescending view, which is highly insulting and is not justified by my post in any way, I cannot help but assume you were lying when you said you weren't trying to insult me before. You appear to have a personal axe to grind with me and are using excuses to target me. As such, I will bow out again, and once more request you do not contact me, nor here nor on SRU. At SRU there are other volunteers you can contact if ever you need one. I do not trust my temper when it comes to dealing with someone who deliberately insults me and then lies about it, lacking even the guts to acknowledge their own deeds. As such, I do not have any desire to communicate with you regarding any matter, even official ones.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Crunch

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« Reply #20 on: <08-21-13/1223:30> »
Michael, with all due respect, I never accused you of throwing a hissy fit. I was simply asking for a clarification of a statement in which you said - essentially- 'If the GM is wrong and rude that would bother me" and I asked you to clarify if it was the wrong or the rude that bothered you.

I have no axe to grind with you, although I will admit that having been accused of being insulting for asking for a clarification, and then ignored when I apologized I am a little on edge with you currently.

Re: the emphasis. We've had this conversation before and I feel like I've made it perfectly clear that the physical limit argument does not in my view counter the easy abuse of cyberlimb agility mods. The fact that you brought it up again here, while knowing that we'd had the discussion before, strikes me as disrespectful.

Now I've never contacted you at SRU - I'm not even a registered member of that forum - there is a user over there with the same username, but it is NOT me. If that's influencing this I don't know what to say, because I am not trying to offend you and you keep ambushing me with really emotional responses to fairly simple statements.

I am more than willing to deal with you rationally, I actually typically appreciate your comments, but I do not understand the abuse you are piling onto me at this point.

ZeConster

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« Reply #21 on: <08-21-13/1245:21> »
Michael, with all due respect, I never accused you of throwing a hissy fit. I was simply asking for a clarification of a statement in which you said - essentially- 'If the GM is wrong and rude that would bother me" and I asked you to clarify if it was the wrong or the rude that bothered you.
That statement is incorrect.
I've read your posts. What I'm trying to parse out is whether you're objecting to the GMs tone, or the GM not going with your ruling.
You asked him to clarify if it was "the rude" or the GM not agreeing with him that he'd object to, not "the wrong", thereby insinuating he'd walk away from a table over something as petty as not getting his way. The fact that you still say you don't see anything wrong with that reflects poorly on you regardless of whether you're telling the truth - either you actually think of him as that petty a player, which makes complete sense for him to be offended by, or you're deliberately painting him as that petty a player while feigning ignorance.

Re: the emphasis. We've had this conversation before and I feel like I've made it perfectly clear that the physical limit argument does not in my view counter the easy abuse of cyberlimb agility mods. The fact that you brought it up again here, while knowing that we'd had the discussion before, strikes me as disrespectful.
Hang on - so it is disrespectful for him to bring something up you disagree with, but it's okay for you to yell at him?

thinklibertarian

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« Reply #22 on: <08-21-13/1252:35> »
I thought the augmented max was +4 over your starting value. Wouldn't that mean an Agi 1 character can have a max of Agi 5 on a limb?

Even if he could buy a 9 Agi limb, he can't use it since it exceeds the natural limit of every race in the book. (Elf 7, Troll 5, everyone else 6).

ZeConster

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« Reply #23 on: <08-21-13/1255:45> »
I thought the augmented max was +4 over your starting value. Wouldn't that mean an Agi 1 character can have a max of Agi 5 on a limb?

Even if he could buy a 9 Agi limb, he can't use it since it exceeds the natural limit of every race in the book. (Elf 7, Troll 5, everyone else 6).
Since cyberlimbs have their own attributes, unless the Powers That Be change their minds about the whole thing, they're not restricted by the augmentation limit.

SoulGambit

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« Reply #24 on: <08-21-13/1313:53> »
O_o The hell? Ya'll quick to jump behind Crunch when he agrees with you and adds eloquence to your arguments, and quick to jump down his throat when he houserules. I mean, I disagree with the guy about a lot of stuff (mostly for fun, truth be told) but based entirely on how he presents himself I'd put my money on him being a good to great GM. The only areas I can't be sure of is how his work-ethic and characterization are, and I can only infer how he interacts with his players, but I don't know that from anyone I haven't played with. Saying that he isn't "doing his job" as a GM is unduly harsh.

Quote
1) The Missions Hotpatch FAQ will be in effect until the Errata and the SR5 FAQ are published.
2) Cyberlimbs cannot breach the Augmented maximum of Natural Attribute +4 under any circumstances. Cyberlimb armor may be subjected to Cyberlimb averaging.
3) A character may use the dodge action to defend against grenades and AOE indirect spells. Each hit moves the character 1m in any direction they chose, usually this would be away from the grenade but it can include diving into cover or even leaping to cover the grenade.
4) Damage in a crash is [Barrier or Bod (if a vehicle) of the thing being crashed into] + [Speed Rating of the Crashing Vehicle] - [Bod of the Crashing vehicle]
5) Touch spells will be resolved by rolling Sorcery + Magic with any relevant bonuses or penalties (ie +2 Dice for touch attack) defended by Rea+Int. No separate touch attack roll is required.

1) Of course.
2) Augmentation rule is necessary. Despite my initial gut reaction, Cyberlimb armor may not be as broke as it initially appears. I'd personally hold off on house-ruling it, perhaps noting that it may be addressed if it becomes a problem.
3) Needs to be net hit, or every hit over a theshold of 3 just to keep it consistent with Grenades. As you have it, Grenades become nearly worthless, losing -2 DV per hit instead of a weapon's -1 DV per hit.  You may also want to nix the Defense roll actually moving the person. This is to prevent people from throwing down smoke grenades or flashbangs as an expensive form of mass-movement.
4) Don't know crash rules, so can't say one way or the other.
5) This one I'm not sure I agree with. I'd make it touch attack of Agility + Unarmed vs Defense per normal for a touch attack. Roll Magic + Spellcasting [Force] vs the same Defense roll, with net hits increasing DV (if the caster wins) or decreasing DV (if the defender wins). Primary reason is that there seems to be an intent to tie touch attacks to the Unarmed skill, and this is the most elegant way I can think of that. If you want to eschew the unarmed skill entirely, then your houserule should be okay.

The Clarification: Just use it responsibly and not as knee jerk reaction. :P

As more general advice? Nab preliminary character concepts / items / etc they might be useing. No obligation, just for you to survey what your players are interested in. That way you know what rule systems you have to look at more thoroughly.

thinklibertarian

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« Reply #25 on: <08-21-13/1316:15> »
Then I'm fine with the house rule  "the maximum augmented value for a cyberlim's stats (customization + enhancement)  is the natural stat +4."

This would mean that the archetype street Sam would be limited to Str 9, Agi 9.

Str 9 because his natural Str is 6. (Saves him 13,000¥.)

His natural Agi is 6, but the max he can buy is 9 (base 3 + customization 3 + enhancement 3). (Customization can't be used to exceed the natural maximum of 6 for orks, and +3 is the biggest enhancement you can buy.)

« Last Edit: <08-21-13/1327:39> by thinklibertarian »

ZeConster

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« Reply #26 on: <08-21-13/1320:26> »
O_o The hell? Ya'll quick to jump behind Crunch when he agrees with you and adds eloquence to your arguments, and quick to jump down his throat when he houserules. I mean, I disagree with the guy about a lot of stuff (mostly for fun, truth be told) but based entirely on how he presents himself I'd put my money on him being a good to great GM. The only areas I can't be sure of is how his work-ethic and characterization are, and I can only infer how he interacts with his players, but I don't know that from anyone I haven't played with. Saying that he isn't "doing his job" as a GM is unduly harsh.
"Ya'll"? You're going to have to be a little more specific than that, since only emsquared said Crunch wasn't "doing his job" - I simply explained why I didn't think one of the houserules was appropiate.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #27 on: <08-21-13/1321:06> »
O_o The hell? Ya'll quick to jump behind Crunch when he agrees with you and adds eloquence to your arguments, and quick to jump down his throat when he houserules. I mean, I disagree with the guy about a lot of stuff (mostly for fun, truth be told) but based entirely on how he presents himself I'd put my money on him being a good to great GM. The only areas I can't be sure of is how his work-ethic and characterization are, and I can only infer how he interacts with his players, but I don't know that from anyone I haven't played with. Saying that he isn't "doing his job" as a GM is unduly harsh.

From what I can tell it's pretty much two that just want to argue and one who is just trolling today.

Quote
1) The Missions Hotpatch FAQ will be in effect until the Errata and the SR5 FAQ are published.
2) Cyberlimbs cannot breach the Augmented maximum of Natural Attribute +4 under any circumstances. Cyberlimb armor may be subjected to Cyberlimb averaging.
3) A character may use the dodge action to defend against grenades and AOE indirect spells. Each hit moves the character 1m in any direction they chose, usually this would be away from the grenade but it can include diving into cover or even leaping to cover the grenade.
4) Damage in a crash is [Barrier or Bod (if a vehicle) of the thing being crashed into] + [Speed Rating of the Crashing Vehicle] - [Bod of the Crashing vehicle]
5) Touch spells will be resolved by rolling Sorcery + Magic with any relevant bonuses or penalties (ie +2 Dice for touch attack) defended by Rea+Int. No separate touch attack roll is required.

1) Of course.
2) Augmentation rule is necessary. Despite my initial gut reaction, Cyberlimb armor may not be as broke as it initially appears. I'd personally hold off on house-ruling it, perhaps noting that it may be addressed if it becomes a problem.
3) Needs to be net hit, or every hit over a theshold of 3 just to keep it consistent with Grenades. As you have it, Grenades become nearly worthless, losing -2 DV per hit instead of a weapon's -1 DV per hit.  You may also want to nix the Defense roll actually moving the person. This is to prevent people from throwing down smoke grenades or flashbangs as an expensive form of mass-movement.
4) Don't know crash rules, so can't say one way or the other.
5) This one I'm not sure I agree with. I'd make it touch attack of Agility + Unarmed vs Defense per normal for a touch attack. Roll Magic + Spellcasting [Force] vs the same Defense roll, with net hits increasing DV (if the caster wins) or decreasing DV (if the defender wins). Primary reason is that there seems to be an intent to tie touch attacks to the Unarmed skill, and this is the most elegant way I can think of that. If you want to eschew the unarmed skill entirely, then your houserule should be okay.

The Clarification: Just use it responsibly and not as knee jerk reaction. :P

As more general advice? Nab preliminary character concepts / items / etc they might be useing. No obligation, just for you to survey what your players are interested in. That way you know what rule systems you have to look at more thoroughly.

I don't particularly care for his house rules, but he's not a part of my group, so it's his call not mine. He wants to change it, that's his prerogative.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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ZeConster

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« Reply #28 on: <08-21-13/1325:38> »
O_o The hell? Ya'll quick to jump behind Crunch when he agrees with you and adds eloquence to your arguments, and quick to jump down his throat when he houserules. I mean, I disagree with the guy about a lot of stuff (mostly for fun, truth be told) but based entirely on how he presents himself I'd put my money on him being a good to great GM. The only areas I can't be sure of is how his work-ethic and characterization are, and I can only infer how he interacts with his players, but I don't know that from anyone I haven't played with. Saying that he isn't "doing his job" as a GM is unduly harsh.
From what I can tell it's pretty much two that just want to argue and one who is just trolling today.
You're going to have to name names and explain yourself here - coming into a topic and saying "two of you are just looking to argue for the sake of arguing, and one of you is trolling" without any explanations as to why you think so, is something I consider trolling.

emsquared

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« Reply #29 on: <08-21-13/1333:23> »
"Ya'll"? You're going to have to be a little more specific than that, since only emsquared said Crunch wasn't "doing his job" ...
Please don't put words in my mouth, ZC. I didn't once say he wasn't doing his job, I proposed talking to players as an alternative to a binary rule which was originally worded more harshly than it is now.