[Crunch]

So I'm finalizing my list of house rules for the 5E game I'm planning on running. Let me know if you spot any major issues.

1) The Missions Hotpatch FAQ will be in effect until the Errata and the SR5 FAQ are published.
2) Cyberlimbs cannot breach the Augmented maximum of Natural Attribute +4 under any circumstances. Cyberlimb armor may be subjected to Cyberlimb averaging.
3) A character may use the dodge action to defend against grenades and AOE indirect spells. Each hit moves the character 1m in any direction they chose, usually this would be away from the grenade but it can include diving into cover or even leaping to cover the grenade.
4) Damage in a crash is [Barrier or Bod (if a vehicle) of the thing being crashed into] + [Speed Rating of the Crashing Vehicle] - [Bod of the Crashing vehicle]
5) Touch spells will be resolved by rolling Sorcery + Magic with any relevant bonuses or penalties (ie +2 Dice for touch attack) defended by Rea+Int. No separate touch attack roll is required.


Not a house rule per se but a warning for summoners. Spirits can use edge to resist summoning checks. Whether they do is conditional, and up to the GM. Spirit's are more likely to use Edge in cases of oversummoning or if they are summoned to an area that would trigger an allergy (summoning a fire spirit into an area that's being doused by fire sprinklers).

[Palladion]

So I'm finalizing my list of house rules for the 5E game I'm planning on running. Let me know if you spot any major issues.

1) The Missions Hotpatch FAQ will be in effect until the Errata and the SR5 FAQ are published.
2) Cyberlimbs cannot be customized above the level of current natural attribute. Cyberlimb armor may be subjected to Cyberlimb averaging.
3) A character may use the dodge action to defend against grenades and AOE indirect spells. Each hit moves the character 1m in any direction they chose, usually this would be away from the grenade but it can include diving into cover or even leaping to cover the grenade.
4) Damage in a crash is [Barrier or Bod (if a vehicle) of the thing being crashed into] + [Speed Rating of the Crashing Vehicle] - [Bod of the Crashing vehicle]
5) Touch spells will be resolved by rolling Sorcery + Magic with any relevant bonuses or penalties (ie +2 Dice for touch attack) defended by Rea+Int. No separate touch attack roll is required.


Not a house rule per se but a warning for summoners. Spirits can use edge to resist summoning checks. Whether they do is conditional, and up to the GM. Spirit's are more likely to use Edge in cases of oversummoning or if they are summoned to an area that would trigger an allergy (summoning a fire spirit into an area that's being doused by fire sprinklers).

I thought Dodge was only for melee attacks? Regardless, it is a good stop-gap solution. If I may give a suggestion to trend away from exact positioning, I use Suppressive Fire for a rules base. While Suppressive Fire gives a Reaction + Edge defense vs. hits rolled, grenades/AOE spells call for an Edge (3) Test (plus Full Defense if used). If Test fails, take full damage (modified by range from center, but not by hits).

Completely agree with the Touch spells rule.

[Crunch]

I thought Dodge was only for melee attacks? Regardless, it is a good stop-gap solution. If I may give a suggestion to trend away from exact positioning, I use Suppressive Fire for a rules base. While Suppressive Fire gives a Reaction + Edge defense vs. hits rolled, grenades/AOE spells call for an Edge (3) Test (plus Full Defense if used). If Test fails, take full damage (modified by range from center, but not by hits).

Completely agree with the Touch spells rule.

Dodge works for both melee and avoiding ramming vehicles, it seemed like a more elegant solution than making a new 5 init interrupt just for grenades.

[ZeConster]

While I'm sure many will disagree with me, I do not like #2. It caps cyberarns and -legs, which already eat up 1 Essence each, at an effective bonus of +3 compared to your natural stats, which is less than the augmentation cap of +4. While excesses like 1 natural Agility and a 9-Agi cyberarm aren't desirable, something like the Street Samurai archetype (3/1 minimum Str/Agi, 5/6 natural Str/Agi, 11/9 cyberlimb Str/Agi) should still be allowed (+6 max seems reasonable to me, provided you don't put your natural attribute at the racial minimum or perhaps even 1 above).
If you're going to restrict cyberlimbs, I'd go with forbidding Exceptional Attribute unless you soft- or hardcap the attribute in question, and one of the following:

• Limit the effective attributes of cyberlimbs to your natural attribute value x2 or x3 (x3 allows 9/9 cyberarms for 3/3 Humans/Elves, but makes it easy for Dwarfs/Orks/Trolls to get high-Strength cyberarms (a Troll could get a max-Strength cyberarm while keeping natural Strength at the racial minimum of 5), while x2 requires you to softcap as a Human/Elf, put 3 Attribute Points into Strength as a Dwarf/Ork, or put 2 Attribute Points into Strength as a Troll, to unlock the highest Strength).
  Maximum Agi/Str cyberlimb bonus compared to natural (x2): Human +4/+4, Elf +5/+4, Dwarf/Ork +4/+5, Troll +4/+6.
  Maximum Agi/Str cyberlimb bonus compared to natural (x3): Human +6/+6, Elf +6/+6, Dwarf/Ork +6/+7, Troll +5/+8.
• Go with the pre-modifier stats (racial minimum counts as 1, racial maximum counts as 6 (5 for Trolls and Agi), max value of cyberlimb counts as 9 (8 for Trolls and Agi)), and go with the x3. This means you'd need to invest 2 attribute points into Strength and 2 into Agility if you want a maxed-out cyberlimb. It's more balanced than the first option, but makes a little less sense fluff-wise.
  Maximum Agi/Str cyberlimb bonus compared to natural: +6 ("1" -> "3", "2" -> "6", "3+" -> "9"/"8")

[Crunch]

My mind is made up about the cyberlimb rules. Honestly the rules on Cyberlimbs are so broken and janky that if this doesn't fix them I'll just ban them entirely. The argument that players should be rewarded for stat dumping by allowing them cheaper augmentation as long as they manipulate the system harder is just flat out dumb.

[Michael Chandra]

This fix of yours is basically banning them since they are far too expensive to be worth a thing now. Don't see why you don't just ban them instead.

[emsquared]

The Hotpatch, sure, there's some bleeding that needed to be stopped, but why not play out a 100 karma or so before deciding you need to fix everything that may not be broken?

[Crunch]

This fix of yours is basically banning them since they are far too expensive to be worth a thing now. Don't see why you don't just ban them instead.

By limiting the customization to natural rating? They're actually still relatively cheap for the level of augmentation they give. It will  effect a handful of abusive builds (Agi 1 (9) guy takes a hit). They compare pretty favoribly to Muscle Replacement (50K and 2 Essence for level 2 versus 41,000 and 1 Essence for a Cyberlimb with +2 Agi and Str with customization costs the Cyberlimb becomes the more essence friendly but slightly more expensive version and gives you access to the extra health box and tricks like cyber weapons) and are much cheaper than Toner and Aug for comparable essence (+2 Agi +2 Str with Toner and Aug would run better than 100,000 and.8 Essence).

Slipped by emsquared. Because 100 Karma of "play a Mystic Adept or die" seems pointless when they're quite clearly a problem.

[ZeConster]

My mind is made up about the cyberlimb rules. Honestly the rules on Cyberlimbs are so broken and janky that if this doesn't fix them I'll just ban them entirely. The argument that players should be rewarded for stat dumping by allowing them cheaper augmentation as long as they manipulate the system harder is just flat out dumb.

Except that limiting customization instead of the maximum attribute value of the cyberlimb still encourages dumpstatting, since I just realized both a 1/1 and a 3/3 character can have a 6/6 standard-then-enhanced cyberarm for 54k. At least my second suggestion puts the optimal point for cyberlimbs at a natural attribute value of "3" instead of "1".

This fix of yours is basically banning them since they are far too expensive to be worth a thing now. Don't see why you don't just ban them instead.

It's not that extreme (although it's close): after Agi/Str enhancements, you've still got 9 Capacity left for other accessories (like spurs so you can deal 9P/-2 with 1 Strength, an SMG, or a shotgun if you drop the Strength enhancement by 1 level).

[Crunch]

[Except that limiting customization instead of the maximum attribute value of the cyberlimb still encourages dumpstatting, since I just realized both a 1/1 and a 3/3 character can have a 6/6 standard-then-enhanced cyberarm for 54k. At least my second suggestion puts the optimal point for cyberlimbs at a natural attribute value of "3" instead of "1".

Good point. fixed.

[emsquared]

By limiting the customization to natural rating? They're actually still relatively cheap for the level of augmentation they give. It will  effect a handful of abusive builds (Agi 1 (9) guy takes a hit).

Or you could just do a GMs job and not allow the AGI 1(9) PC at your table instead of severely nerfing an entire signature game style and mechanic.

...Because 100 Karma of "play a Mystic Adept or die" seems pointless when they're quite clearly a problem.

Your hyperbole is not an effective argument against again just doing your job as GM.

[Crunch]

By limiting the customization to natural rating? They're actually still relatively cheap for the level of augmentation they give. It will  effect a handful of abusive builds (Agi 1 (9) guy takes a hit).

Or you could just do a GMs job and not allow the AGI 1(9) PC at your table instead of severely nerfing an entire signature game style and mechanic.

...Because 100 Karma of "play a Mystic Adept or die" seems pointless when they're quite clearly a problem.

Your hyperbole is not an effective argument against again just doing your job as GM.

My job as a GM is to set effective guidelines. Which I'm doing by setting clear house rules.

The limit to cyberlimbs is actually relatively small for any case but the abusive ones.

The Mystic Adept stuff has been hashed out ad infinitum, and I know which way I'm going to go (which is with the official ruling).

Making these sorts of things clear up front instead of wasting the players time is part of a GMs job.

[Michael Chandra]

This fix of yours is basically banning them since they are far too expensive to be worth a thing now. Don't see why you don't just ban them instead.

By limiting the customization to natural rating? They're actually still relatively cheap for the level of augmentation they give.[...]

On a single limb, not including your Physical Limit, Sneaking, Palming, Movement Rates and so on. That single limb might be cheaper, but it gives far less bonuses to begin with, and you'd need two arms if you want to fire anything that actually has a punch. And if they ever raise their natural attribute, their limbs are now significantly worse off than an augmentation, plus longterm they cannot reach the +4 that someone with augmenting ware can get.

In the short term, this might seem like balancing, but if you look at the bigger picture, limiting the customized stats already hurts them at chargen and cripples them in the long run. So honestly, this houserule means cyberlimbs are only worth it for low-attribute short-term characters that don't bother with Stealth skills, it does not just hurt abusive builds (that are already punishing themselves to begin with, given everything a limb doesn't give), but hurts anyone who wants to receive a fair boost from a limb at a price.

[Crunch]

This fix of yours is basically banning them since they are far too expensive to be worth a thing now. Don't see why you don't just ban them instead.

By limiting the customization to natural rating? They're actually still relatively cheap for the level of augmentation they give.[...]

On a single limb, not including your Physical Limit, Sneaking, Palming, Movement Rates and so on. That single limb might be cheaper, but it gives far less bonuses to begin with, and you'd need two arms if you want to fire anything that actually has a punch. And if they ever raise their natural attribute, their limbs are now significantly worse off than an augmentation, plus longterm they cannot reach the +4 that someone with augmenting ware can get.

In the short term, this might seem like balancing, but if you look at the bigger picture, limiting the customized stats already hurts them at chargen and cripples them in the long run. So honestly, this houserule means cyberlimbs are only worth it for low-attribute short-term characters that don't bother with Stealth skills, it does not just hurt abusive builds (that are already punishing themselves to begin with, given everything a limb doesn't give), but hurts anyone who wants to receive a fair boost from a limb at a price.

Look at the Cyberlimb averaging rules again Michael. Unless an action is spefically ruled to "require close coordination" then the Cyberlimb will always give at least a +1 to the general attribute. The Agi 1(9) guy is actually getting a full body agi of 3 in edition to his limburgher arm. I'd rather fix the problem in chargen and be generous in play then spend the time to analyze every action.

And again Agility DOES NOT EFFECT THE PHYSICAL LIMIT IN ANY WAY, so can you stop bringing it up in discussions about a system most easily abused in terms of agility.

[emsquared]

My job as a GM is to set effective guidelines. Which I'm doing by setting clear house rules.

Actually your job as GM is to craft the mutual story-telling experience, which is generally the best when least confined by rules. The notion that nerfing cyberlimbs, which while janky are not at all broken, creates a better experience is just false and even lazy, when it could be solved by just speaking to players as GM. And the notion that any human (even your 7 REA + 4 INT + 4 Gym sammy) could leap (on average) 5 meters (a full meter greater than any recorded human ever has, when they still recorded that type of thing), but conceivably 7+ depending on Physical Limit (which is wayyyyy outside the realm of physically possible for a humans physiology), from a standing position is just pure ridiculousnessessness and not good for storytelling in the least. Why can't you make that jump when not having a grenade shot at you?

Damage in a crash, whatevs.

And with touch spells, I understand Magicians were spanked with the nerf bat, but does making up a nonsensical mechanic (what does Magic and your Skill at Sorcery have to do with laying a hand on someone) serve any purpose other than to coddle your own personal feelings? I doubt it.

The Mystic Adept stuff has been hashed out ad infinitum, and I know which way I'm going to go (which is with the official ruling).

And I said, Hotpatch is a given.