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How do the NAN countries work?

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Mirikon

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« Reply #15 on: <08-21-13/1426:11> »
No, Smiley, because the Sioux (and the other NAN) weren't just sitting on their hands all that time. They all have national militaries of their own, complete with all the bells and whistles. Hell, even during their war to take 'their' land, they took over Army and National Guard armories as they went along. And you know where the old United States kept a large portion of their nuclear weapons? The areas where the NAN are now. In other words, the Ghost Dance is just one of many tools in their toolbox.
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Ramid

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« Reply #16 on: <08-21-13/1430:58> »
Thats largely what the America First! bunch have argued for since the creation of the NAN states but the UCAS has a number of things it would need to
worry about.

CAS. Any war with the NAN is likely to bring the CAS In and very likely on the side of the NAN as they would see it as the beginning of a war of reunification of America.

Aztlan Since Aztlan holds territory that the UCAS might try and claim at some point and Aztlan and through them Aztechnology is likely to support the NAN

The NAN states themselves while the Sioux Nation is small its a Military society every member is expected to serve time in the Army and personal ownership of quite heavy weaponry is the Norm. Also two of the NAN nations Salish Sidhe and the Pueplo Corporate council are advanced Industrial nations with large military forces any attack on one nation would bring the others into the fight as well.

Tir Tairngire The Elven nation wouldn't sit around if the Ucas started rolling in their direction and would most definetely support the NAN nations.

the Megacorps. Many of the megacorps have no wish to see a rebuilt America that could potentially challenge their powers

Japan would definitely not want a Powerful America meddling in their Pacific Ocean and would overtly or covertly support the NAN states

Amazonia same and on and on and on.

Crunch

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« Reply #17 on: <08-21-13/1442:37> »
1) NAN/Aztlan/CAS/Quebec and Cal Free all have reason to oppose UCAS expansionism.
2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless. SR North America suits Ares and Renraku just fine. Aztlan would specifically be a voice on the Corporate Court against the expansion of the UCAS. 
3) VITAS would logically have hit hardest in the major urban areas, so by the time of the NAN uprising the population pendulum may already have started swinging in the direction of the mostly rural Midwest, Southeast and West.
4) The CAS, Cal Free and the NAN ended up in posession of a dispraportionate amount of old US military hardware. 

MrSmiley

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« Reply #18 on: <08-21-13/1506:48> »
No, Smiley, because the Sioux (and the other NAN) weren't just sitting on their hands all that time. They all have national militaries of their own, complete with all the bells and whistles. Hell, even during their war to take 'their' land, they took over Army and National Guard armories as they went along. And you know where the old United States kept a large portion of their nuclear weapons? The areas where the NAN are now. In other words, the Ghost Dance is just one of many tools in their toolbox.

Yes, but it's the national military of a country with a tiny, tiny fraction of the population of the UCAS. Once the magic trump card is countered by the UCAS having its own mages and shamans, unless the native to non-native population discrepancy is vastly different between the real world and world of Shadowrun, the NAN operates at a huge disadvantage in any situation where they can't wield the threat of another Great Ghost Dance or nuclear holocaust as a blunt cudgel. On a conventional military level, there simply isn't any way they could compete with the population of their non-native neighbors without both allowing massive non-native american immigration and strong incentives for that immigrant population to support the status quo.

Crunch

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« Reply #19 on: <08-21-13/1512:34> »
Remember Smiley that because of the Aztlan involvement at the time of the NAN's creation it's actually "Anyone with provable native blood, anyone with provable Latino/a blood, anyone with a reasonable case for some Native American blood in the more liberal areas of the NAN, any metahuman in the more Metahuman welcolming areas like the S-S) and while the Sioux were more selective than most, post formation the NAN states tend to be pretty relaxed about allowing internal movement and intermarriage.

So you might very well have a "Sioux Nation" where the Sioux are a minority compared to Latinos and migrants from other NAN states, but when you combine that with VITAS hitting harder on the coasts you see a much smaller population discrepancy.

That and of course FASAnomics.

Silence

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« Reply #20 on: <08-21-13/1519:39> »
Yes, but it's the national military of a country with a tiny, tiny fraction of the population of the UCAS. Once the magic trump card is countered by the UCAS having its own mages and shamans, unless the native to non-native population discrepancy is vastly different between the real world and world of Shadowrun, the NAN operates at a huge disadvantage in any situation where they can't wield the threat of another Great Ghost Dance or nuclear holocaust as a blunt cudgel. On a conventional military level, there simply isn't any way they could compete with the population of their non-native neighbors without both allowing massive non-native american immigration and strong incentives for that immigrant population to support the status quo.

Part of the reason the Salish-Sidhe Council and Pueblo Corporate Council are less concerned about "purity" and more concerned about "will you do your part?"

And yes, some of the Cascade Orks used to be Cascade Crow, which is part of the reason for the rivalry.  The other part is that since a large number of the orks joining the Cascade Orks were Americans, well, there two choices of racist jack-offs to vent your frustrations on nearby.  The Cascade Crow, or Tir Tirnagre.  Which is what leads to the smuggling "sideline" the tribe has.  Basically, they handle a LOT of commerce for the SSC that keeps the ecomony going, but due to NAN or local laws, just wouldn't be happening.

And let's hear about FASAnomics.  That should be amusing.
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farothel

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« Reply #21 on: <08-21-13/1522:20> »
I'm not sure if the CAS and Aztlan would fight for the NAN (you just don't see them on the same side), but they would be looking with interest.  And while the UCAS might be able to wipe out a lot of the NAN, it would weaken them to the point that others (like Aztlan) would be rolling in and take over a lot of stuff.  Since I believe the UCAS likes it that there's a buffer between them and Aztlan (PCC and CAS mostly), all that flies back and forth is words and the occasional spec ops raid.

It's in fact the same reason why the CAS isn't pressing against the NAN or UCAS, and the NAN isn't pressing against the CAS and UCAS.  One on one is one thing, but knowing that if you start a war others will jump on you while you're weakened keeps everybody in line.
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Crunch

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« Reply #22 on: <08-21-13/1526:04> »
FASAnomics? Essentially FASA was staffed mostly by writers and gamers rather than accountants and some things (population densities in the sixth world, intersteller armies protecting Successor States with hundreds of billions of peopel smaller than the current US army in Battletech etc) were great ideas with numbers that sounded good thrown at them,

Does it ruin the games? Nope. Does it occasionally take some mental gymnastics if you start thinking about it too hard? Yep.

Silence

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« Reply #23 on: <08-21-13/1536:32> »
Actually, some of that was due to the fact they had to explain a couple major holes in the reasoning of Battletech.  As far as the rapid population drop in the US, it would have been focused mainly on the East and West Coast.  Higher population densities would see to that, if nothing else.  Of course, I can see a newly elected Libertarian getting blamed for a liberal Congress selling off chunks of protected lands to corporations.  I can't really see some of the runners accepting that at face value, though.
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Crunch

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« Reply #24 on: <08-21-13/1538:37> »
The holes in the reasoning of Battletech (and SR, ED, CS, RL etc) are what is generally meant by FASAnomics.
« Last Edit: <08-21-13/1543:13> by Crunch »

Kincaid

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« Reply #25 on: <08-21-13/1540:00> »
It doesn't really make sense at face value, but I hand wave it by saying the NAN has exceptional special forces to handle the small dust ups and everyone is afraid of Ghost Dance II, so no one tries a large scale invasion.
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Silence

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« Reply #26 on: <08-21-13/1551:58> »
Frankly, it makes more sense when you consider the politics of the writers.  Frankly, they created the Libertarian Paradise by accident.  Nobody ever said that a Libertarian Paradise was particularly nice for everyone.  Or anyone, really.  Why do I call it that?  Because the government had become irrelevant.  Logic dictates that the megas at some point HAVE to start making the world better, if only because if they keep it a shithole, their own bottom line is going to suffer for it.  But since the writers believe corporations are evil, they must be evil.
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Crunch

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« Reply #27 on: <08-21-13/1554:36> »
It's typically not kosher to discuss contemporary (as opposed to fictional or historical) politics on the boards Silence, so I'll just say that neither the history of plutocracy nor the history of aristocracy supports the contention that corporations will necessarily make the world a better place.

grid_roamer

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« Reply #28 on: <08-21-13/1605:56> »
It just history that a free thinking body (corporation, government, union) must be recognized as benevolent to stimulate progress.

Crunch

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« Reply #29 on: <08-21-13/1608:18> »
Again this isn't the place for it, but you would need to spend a lot more time defining the term "free thinking body" to make that statement worth debating, and then spend a lot of time discussing why, historically, so few bodies have been benevolent but so much progress has been made.