[Dr. Meatgrinder]

"Note that thresholds are never applied to Opposed Tests" (SR4A, 63).

So you have to make a choice:  Do you treat the target as fully machine? (Then you do the Object Resistance Threshold and only Physical spells can affect them.)  Or do you treat the target as a living creature?  (Then it's an Opposed Test.)

If you really want to houserule it, you could use something akin to the Healing penalty:  "a dice pool modifier to the Spellcasting Test equal to the subject's lost Essence (rounded down)" (SR4A, 207).  Or houserule it so that a mundane character automatically gets a level of the Magic Resistance quality per full point of lost Essence.  (Depending on whether you want the lost Essence to be a penalty to the caster's pool or a bonus to the target's pool.)

[KarmaInferno]

I've pointed it out before, but ideally you want any defense on a player character's part to be 'active', as in they roll dice to defend, rather than relying on some passive stat.

It's a game design psychology thing. The player should always be made to feel that they have some active hand in their destiny.



-k

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

I've pointed it out before, but ideally you want any defense on a player character's part to be 'active', as in they roll dice to defend, rather than relying on some passive stat.

It's a game design psychology thing. The player should always be made to feel that they have some active hand in their destiny.

Quite true.  I GMed for a long-time gaming group that preferred GURPS to D&D in part for that very reason.  They didn't like just being hit, with no chance to roll it off.

[Carmody]

Don't use edge before, use it after to reroll all the dices that didn't get a hit, with 15 dice that 5 successes + 3 successes from the reroll of the 10 dice that didn't score a hit.

Using edge after a roll to reroll does not work like that, that would be too easy. You are allowed to reroll all dice in case you are you did not score any succes on the whole roll, not per dice.

[Mäx]

Don't use edge before, use it after to reroll all the dices that didn't get a hit, with 15 dice that 5 successes + 3 successes from the reroll of the 10 dice that didn't score a hit.

Using edge after a roll to reroll does not work like that, that would be too easy.

Actually, yes it does.

[Carmody]

Don't use edge before, use it after to reroll all the dices that didn't get a hit, with 15 dice that 5 successes + 3 successes from the reroll of the 10 dice that didn't score a hit.

Using edge after a roll to reroll does not work like that, that would be too easy.

Actually, yes it does.

I do not agree.

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

The that did not score a hit proposition applies to a single test not to dice. Otherwise it would have been written "you may reroll all the dice that did not score a hit on a single test"

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Don't use edge before, use it after to reroll all the dices that didn't get a hit, with 15 dice that 5 successes + 3 successes from the reroll of the 10 dice that didn't score a hit.

Using edge after a roll to reroll does not work like that, that would be too easy.

Actually, yes it does.

I do not agree.

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

The that did not score a hit proposition applies to a single test not to dice. Otherwise it would have been written "you may reroll all the dice that did not score a hit on a single test"

Recent material seems to disagree with you.

He scores 8 hits. He and his team would like to make as much as possible for such a high-risk run, so Riser decides to throw in a point of Edge. Rerolling all the non-successes, he gets 3 additional hits, for a total of 11 hits.

Because she needs to make sure no one notices the edits, Ladybug uses Edge to re-roll her failures and scores 3 more hits for a total of 5.

He decides to use a point of edge to re-roll non-successes

In each case, the source cited is SR4A, p. 74.

As far as grammar goes, it does say "a hit" (singular, not plural), so even if you want to force the "that did not score a hit" to modify "test," it doesn't matter if I don't score exactly one hit.  If I score five hits, I did not score "a hit" (singular); I scored hits (plural).

[KarmaInferno]

I do not agree.

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

The that did not score a hit proposition applies to a single test not to dice. Otherwise it would have been written "you may reroll all the dice that did not score a hit on a single test"

Tests don't score hits. Individual dice do.

The rule is worded badly, really, so it could be interpreted either way.

So far, at 90% of the Shadowrun GMs I have played with (and over the years I've played literally dozens, since I go to conventions a lot), they interpret the rule to mean "keep successes and re-roll the rest". The example mechanics in more recent books have also all pretty much assumed this was the case.



-k

[Carmody]

Well, I have to agree with the mosr recent material, obviously   

Not sure I will apply at my tablr though.

As far as grammar goes, it does say "a hit" (singular, not plural), so even if you want to force the "that did not score a hit" to modify "test," it doesn't matter if I don't score exactly one hit.  If I score five hits, I did not score "a hit" (singular); I scored hits (plural).

However this particular point is a clear example of trying misunderstand a sentence.

[Lanlaorn]

His example is as contrived a misunderstanding as yours. I'm also not sure why you won't apply it at your table, too proud to admit you made a mistake or what? This use of edge is one of the more powerful, especially when you're desperate for success to beat the roll of some very powerful enemy.

For what it's worth, I've heard that in the foreign language translations due to differing grammar it's impossible to read it incorrectly. So if you need more proof than example text a German rulebook or something may help out.

[Chaemera]

I never liked their word choice in the examples ("re-roll non-successes"), but their example shows the mechanics correctly.

Individual dice score hits.

Based on the hits of the dice of a pool, a Test succeeds or fails.

These definitions are laid out in the SR4A book, very cleanly, on pages 62 (Target Numbers and Hits) and 63 - 65 (Different Types of Tests).

My advice is, don't penalize your players because you didn't have a clear understanding of the terms "Hit" or "Success".

[Carmody]

His example is as contrived a misunderstanding as yours. I'm also not sure why you won't apply it at your table, too proud to admit you made a mistake or what? This use of edge is one of the more powerful, especially when you're desperate for success to beat the roll of some very powerful enemy.

For what it's worth, I've heard that in the foreign language translations due to differing grammar it's impossible to read it incorrectly. So if you need more proof than example text a German rulebook or something may help out.

Well, I have to agree with the most recent material, obviously

In case you do not consider this sentence as admiting I was wrong I can state that again: I understood the sentence incorrectly and I was wrong.I am going to whip myself as punishment for my mistake! 
Happy?

As for the other languages, being french and using mostly french books I took time to re-read this sentence in french. It is indeed not possible to misunderstand thanks to the grammar... but the only possible understanding is mine, which explain why I was remembering that way and how I interpreted the english sentence (+I do not have the runner toolkit yet). I will discuss that point with the french translation team.
Here is the sentence in french, for other french readers to confirm (or not) my understanding:

Vous pouvez relancer tous les dés d’un seul test pour lequel vous n’avez obtenu aucun succès.

lequel is the french for that (in that sentence) but it is singular so it applies to the test, also singular. If it were to apply to the dice (plural) lequel would have been plural (i.e. lesquels).
Furthermore the end of the sentence is aucun succès wich translate in no hit, as neither one nor more.

Finally, I will not apply this rule because I do not like the gameplay with it. There are 3 main options to use edge on rolls :
   - you decide to use edge before the roll, add edge dice to  your dice pool and all dice explode
   - you decide to use edge after the roll, roll edge more dice that can explode. This is balanced with the previous one because if your initial roll is good enough you do not spend your edge, on the other hand only edge dice explode
   - you decide to use edge after the roll to re-roll all dice that did not score a hit: this means that on average you re-roll 2/3 of your dice, meaning that if your edge value is smaller than 2/3 of your dice pool this option is the more powerful (i.e. a very lucky guy with edge 6 only need a dice pool of 10 (1 die margin for the exploding 6) for this option to be the best one) and allow you to decide to spend your edge after your initial roll.
I feel this option is very unbalanced compared to the 2 others. With my understanding, there are mainly 2 options to increase your dice pool on critical tests: the 2 first ones, this last option is used on a usual test where you are really unlucky and roll no success.

I hope it is clear, in case please ask kindly for clarifications.

Edit: added smileys and the sentence in french.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I feel this option is very unbalanced compared to the 2 others. With my understanding, there are mainly 2 options to increase your dice pool on critical tests: the 2 first ones, this last option is used on a usual test where you are really unlucky and roll no success.

I hope it is clear, in case please ask kindly for clarifications.

Edit: added smileys and the sentence in french.

In the vast majority of situations it is unbalanced compared to the other options given what I see of how people make their characters.  You would almost never use edge in any other way.  The only time you will use the bonus dice method is when you either suck at something or enough penalty dice have stacked up to make you suck at something.  At around 12 dice and 8 edge it is even either way either less edge or more dice in the pool and reroll failures is just the better option. 

[Carmody]

Shinobi Killfist, this is exactly what I wanted to explain, and this is what bothers me, I do not like when there are several options but a single one is the better in all (or almost all) cases.

[Kontact]

There's actually a table out there for how big your DP has to be compared to how big your edge attribute is to warrant throwing edge up front instead of rerolling misses.I'll see if I can find it.

Best I can do:

The break even point is edge = 7/18 times (dice pool). More edge--use exploding dice. Less edge--reroll failures. So if you have a dice pool of 18 and an edge of 7, statistically you'll get the same number of successes (on average) either way. The advantage of rerolling failures is (as Jaid said) knowing if you need to do it or not. The advantage of exploding dice is the possibility (a really slim chance) of getting more successes than pool. Too bad you may only do one or the other.

So, if you have an edge of 4, you'd want to throw edge up front on any test with 10 or fewer dice.