NEWS

Spirit Power: Immunity (Errata Please)

  • 206 Replies
  • 55570 Views

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #30 on: <08-09-13/1222:47> »
Correct, RAW they are ALLOWED to use Edge when being summoned. Whether they do is up to the GM.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Daedalus

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 31
« Reply #31 on: <08-09-13/1408:35> »
Spirits have an Edge rating, they just don't use it once they're summoned.  There's no reason to think that they wouldn't use it before being successfully summoned.
There is no argument here. However this is an interpretation and therefore a subjective ruling. It makes sense, but the RAW here can be interpreted legitimately both ways. As such in our group the literal interpretation prevails from start to finish barring any official RAI clarification.

Michael thanks for you input and help.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #32 on: <08-09-13/1416:28> »
RAW: Spirits have Edge, they don't use their own edge as summoned or bound, they are NPCs. At that point the GM decides when that Edge actually enters play.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

shinryu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 76
« Reply #33 on: <08-09-13/2054:46> »
forum eated the longer version of this post, but for simplicity: i kind of think that the mainstream interpretation of  immunity is potentially wrong. in specific, immunity implies that the immunity rating is added to the damage resistance test, and half the immunity rating is added as automatic hits. it doesn't say that the hardened armor rating is used. although the language regarding damage exceeding the immunity rating implies that the doubled essence is the immunity rating.

however, given the ambiguous wording,  i think the interpreting the immunity rating being equal to essence is much better overall for game balance without fundamentally changing any of the statistics for spirits and other critters. in the "hardened armor" reading, a force 6 water spirit soaks a 12+ damage attack with 6 body + 12 - AP armor + either (12 - AP/2) or 6 automatic hits for an expect of about 12 hits. if essence is the immunity rating, the spirit soaks with 6 body + 6 immunity (not affected by AP) + 3 automatic hits, making for about 7 expected hits. it's hard to kill but it's not a completely useless effort. again, the text skews towards the doubled essence interpretation, but it seems odd to differentiate the power from hardened armor when the authors could just say "the critter has hardened armor equivalent to twice its essence" and be unambiguously clear about the intent of the rules.


also, it's unclear if the intent is that half the immunity rating unmodified by the AP of the attack is added as automatic hits, or if half the modified rating is added as in hardened armor proper. the first interpretation is much less... defensible than the first for game balance, i would think, if you interpret immunity as equivalent to hardened armor . in the first case, your force 12 water spirit takes an AV rocket to the face and resists with a soak of 12 body + 20 armor + 12 automatic successes for about 23 soak in total, whereas in the second case it's  only 10 automatic successes and the anti-vehicle rocket can at least do some small amount of damage.  (honestly, i'd give the AV rocket the whole -10 against anything it tags directly, vehicle or not, but by the RAW it doesn't get that. would presume it gets extra hits to damage if it's using a motion trigger, though). this also makes the use of MGL-12s with motion-triggered HE rounds  (SA burst for -4 defense or ignored defense, 24P damage, AP -4 according to the missions head writer) at least a reasonable attempt at a mundane response to a spirit of this magnitude.


Shade

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 168
« Reply #34 on: <08-09-13/2231:48> »
These arguments against spirits seem to be mostly based upon:
1) A dislike of the fact that a magician can do something so powerful
Combined with
2) An inability or unwillingness to properly understand the scale of what is being discussed.

Here's the problem. Both mechanically and in terms of consequences, I consider unleashing a force 10+ spirit upon one's enemies to be the equivalent to using several kilos of plastic explosive to solve a problem. Any forensic magician(for the corp, for Knight errant, for...whoever) will take one look at that signature and realize they are dealing with terrorists who are using weapons of mass destruction. Just like they would treat it if you completed a wetwork job by demolishing the high rise condo the target was in with explosives.
As for the mechanics, I'll say it again. A rigger with a van is roughly as dangerous as the spirit. Check out the ramming mechanics if you think I'm wrong.

shinryu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 76
« Reply #35 on: <08-09-13/2258:23> »
can the van teleport through the astral? i mean, that's sort of a large-scale discrepancy in power there. if the rigger could smuggle the van in in his pocket, i think they'd be even. also, the van should be loaded with a water cannon full of DMSO and fear-inducing hallucinogens along with a flamethrower for complete accuracy.

i do agree that the costs of summoning really high-force spirits are prohibitive, especially if they are permitted to use edge as they should to resist summoning. it's also relatively easy to see how the wait for spirits to manifest and their creative interpretations of instructions can work around some of the issues. but it's hard to argue that being able to summon a force 12 spirit isn't a wee bit overpowered when it's basically the equivalent of casting summon APC. seriously, any class of force 12 spirit is the equivalent of an ares roadmaster in terms of its effective soak pool, and it has even better hardened armor to boot. oh, and it can teleport. i think an alternate reading of immunity would fix a lot of the problems fairly well, as would direct impact from grenades and rockets halving armor (which is already in the explosives rules, though not directly stated for these types of explosives)

Shade

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 168
« Reply #36 on: <08-09-13/2301:11> »
I assume, then, that you simply make all explosives impossible for players to get? I also imagine you disallow ramming attacks against pedestrian targets.

shinryu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 76
« Reply #37 on: <08-09-13/2355:15> »
let me put it this way; if you had a player ask for a banshee with an assault cannon to materialize from the ether and smite their foes because their character wished real hard it would happen, would you go for that?

of course my players can run people over or blow things up. i'm very happy when they do that. but they have to go through the hoops of acquiring the vehicle or the plastique to do so, and typically they also have to smuggle the device past security or place their vehicle in an appropriate position to do so. mage just says, "hey, i'm bored, i got three seconds; let's summon the spiritual equivalent of an infantry fighting vehicle from nothingness!" sure, it's got a good chance of killing him, but he could do that anywhere. on a transcontinental flight, sitting next to a major megacorporate executive, whatever. security couldn't do anything to stop him if they don't have magicians handy*, and the fluff highly implies that they typically don't. it may not be the rational move, but it's an option. especially if you're not rational.

many people, including those who want to kill other people for political or religious reasons, are definitely irrational enough to do literally suicidal things. even if the summoner dies, there's a reasonable chance the thing he just manifested will go on a killing spree just as bad as the one he would have commanded it to undertake. so if you believe spirits should be as deadly as they are by the numbers, then you implicitly have justified the complete and total oppression of the awakened as walking weapons of mass destruction. because by any sane definition this level of power makes every reasonably powerful mage a suicide bomber that no chemsniffer or cyberware scanner can catch.  security can't even figure out he would want to do it ahead of time if they didn't have a way to read his thoughts (so, more magic then). anybody who has the least possibility of being assassinated better have an astrally projecting top-tier mage on deck following them at all times who's ready to take life-threatening drain in a last-ditch banishing attempt at a second's notice. i'm sure that's cool for the president or damon knight to keep such dedicated professionals on staff, but everybody else must live in a puddle of fear and urine every time they leave their carefully warded fortresses.

folllowing this logic, how is the most rational response to this situation by the crushing majority of mundanes not just "geek the mage," but geek each and every mage sometime in the teen years shortly after magical abilities manifest but before said mages can become this powerful? even if that doesn't involve killing them, mandatory burnout of full magicians and conjurers wouldn't be out of the question as a "humane" solution to the mage problem. spirits like this are why there would be a magician holocaust sooner rather than later, and they're probably one of the major reasons everybody who's actually important lives in a mana void (e.g. orbit).

*i assume summoning something of this nature is probably a physically obvious action, but there's nothing in the rules that says it needs to be. furthermore, all you have to do is get close enough. mask your signature through the astral spotters, get a decent view of mr. president that's a bit out of the way of the security staff, and there's a good chance said security won't know what mage to geek before your summoned flying tank does its dirty work. can't even guarantee that a force 12 mana barrier will be enough to stop this kind of beast. elemental attack would pass through it as well, though i suppose the spirit would be firing blind through that. i would tend to rule that you can't make your spirit target anything you don't point out to the spirit astrally since it can't see the physical plane at all, so a dual-natured barrier might be a bit of a bugger to this plan. they better keep a mana barrier up around him every step he takes and around the vehicles in his motorcade though.

also, you could have suicide drones with real big shaped charges ready to go at all times in case this sort of thing manifests. in fact, i imagine three or four stealth-optics wih a couple kilos of plastique are probably hovering around a vip any time he's outside the enclave he calls home, along with the snipers with assault cannons in strategic locations. for that matter, i would imagine any corporate facility worth its salt has a couple of these drone bombers plus a steel lynx or two with an assault cannon handy. if mages have APC-level firepower on tap, you can bet that HTR teams show up with vehicle-killing weapons handy. all in all, just the potential of spirits of this potency being summoned means every force in the world is going to react with overwhelming force to each and every incident, just in case there's a crazy suicide-bomber mage involved.
« Last Edit: <08-10-13/0026:33> by shinryu »

RHat

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
« Reply #38 on: <08-10-13/0119:29> »
First, a security detail of that level would have magical support - good, dedicated magical support that would counter with a similarly powerful spirit, or many slightly lesser ones that would be bound (hell, might even be some long-term-bound).  Second, as with MANY things in Shadowrun, the problem isn't pulling it off, but getting away with it (blimp-drone snipers, for example, are actually a better chance for that kind of thing because you have a MUCH better shot of getting away with it).  A Force 12 spirit means a 12 hour magical signature.
"Speech"
Thoughts
Matrix <<Text>> "Speech"
Spirits and Sprites

MacAnu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #39 on: <08-10-13/0204:15> »
First, a security detail of that level would have magical support - good, dedicated magical support that would counter with a similarly powerful spirit, or many slightly lesser ones that would be bound (hell, might even be some long-term-bound).
Why don't corporations mobilize the magical support and have them send high Force spirit at runners, even when the runners don't have magical support?  Whether the runner team has a high Force spirit or not doesn't change how important the MacGuffin is.  Are you saying the corps make decisions in such a way that weaker runner teams can succeed at something that stronger runner teams can't?  (You probably aren't summoning high Force spirits for stealth missions against targets with magical security.)  How are the runners supposed to deal with high Force spirits except with Banishing or their own high Force spirit?

RHat

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
« Reply #40 on: <08-10-13/0210:24> »
First, a security detail of that level would have magical support - good, dedicated magical support that would counter with a similarly powerful spirit, or many slightly lesser ones that would be bound (hell, might even be some long-term-bound).
Why don't corporations mobilize the magical support and have them send high Force spirit at runners, even when the runners don't have magical support?  Whether the runner team has a high Force spirit or not doesn't change how important the MacGuffin is.  Are you saying the corps make decisions in such a way that weaker runner teams can succeed at something that stronger runner teams can't?  (You probably aren't summoning high Force spirits for stealth missions against targets with magical security.)  How are the runners supposed to deal with high Force spirits except with Banishing or their own high Force spirit?

If it's worth it, they'll definitely haul out the big guns.  They're usually going to be less than inclined to tell the wagemage to risk death in the summoning (mages are too rare to risk like that), but if its important enough such things can happen.  In other words, there is no diegetic reason they wouldn't for something of sufficient importance; at the same time, runners who aren't equipped to handle that shouldn't be getting tapped for the sorts of jobs where that's liable to come up.
"Speech"
Thoughts
Matrix <<Text>> "Speech"
Spirits and Sprites

MacAnu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #41 on: <08-10-13/0216:47> »
First, a security detail of that level would have magical support - good, dedicated magical support that would counter with a similarly powerful spirit, or many slightly lesser ones that would be bound (hell, might even be some long-term-bound).
Why don't corporations mobilize the magical support and have them send high Force spirit at runners, even when the runners don't have magical support?  Whether the runner team has a high Force spirit or not doesn't change how important the MacGuffin is.  Are you saying the corps make decisions in such a way that weaker runner teams can succeed at something that stronger runner teams can't?  (You probably aren't summoning high Force spirits for stealth missions against targets with magical security.)  How are the runners supposed to deal with high Force spirits except with Banishing or their own high Force spirit?

If it's worth it, they'll definitely haul out the big guns.  They're usually going to be less than inclined to tell the wagemage to risk death in the summoning (mages are too rare to risk like that), but if its important enough such things can happen.  In other words, there is no diegetic reason they wouldn't for something of sufficient importance; at the same time, runners who aren't equipped to handle that shouldn't be getting tapped for the sorts of jobs where that's liable to come up.
Then why does the presence of a high Force spirit commanded by the runners bring out the big guns?  It seems like whether the big guns are brought out or not should be independent of how strong the runners are, but instead be based on how important the MacGuffin is.  Why does this limit runners using high Force spirits?

It seems like your argument is runners SHOULD use high Force spirits, because otherwise they won't survive when the magical security pulls out theirs to defend an important MacGuffin.

Here's the problem. Both mechanically and in terms of consequences, I consider unleashing a force 10+ spirit upon one's enemies to be the equivalent to using several kilos of plastic explosive to solve a problem. Any forensic magician(for the corp, for Knight errant, for...whoever) will take one look at that signature and realize they are dealing with terrorists who are using weapons of mass destruction. Just like they would treat it if you completed a wetwork job by demolishing the high rise condo the target was in with explosives.
Destroying a high rise condo with explosives deals tons of collateral damage.  Unlike weapons of mass destruction, a high Force spirit doesn't have to dish out collateral damage.  How is it different from a very powerful (high karma/nuyen) street sam?  Would such a street sam provoke a similar response from forensic teams?  Would using a Force 6 spirit provoke such a response?  Its signature lasts for 6 hours, which is enough time for the forensic magician to look at it.  If they have all these capabilities, why don't they use them on weaker teams who can't defend themselves against this?  The importance of the MacGuffin doesn't change based on the amount of force the runners bring to bear.

Quote
As for the mechanics, I'll say it again. A rigger with a van is roughly as dangerous as the spirit. Check out the ramming mechanics if you think I'm wrong.
Riggers don't have ridiculous dice pools and you can actually hit the van with things or dodge the ramming attack.  On top of that, a rigger is limited by road availability, enough space to accelerate/decelerate, flying, etc.  For instance, vans generally aren't good versus targets in buildings (with a few exceptions).
« Last Edit: <08-10-13/0218:18> by MacAnu »

RHat

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
« Reply #42 on: <08-10-13/0219:41> »
Then why does the presence of a high Force spirit commanded by the runners bring out the big guns?  It seems like whether the big guns are brought out or not should be independent of how strong the runners are, but instead be based on how important the MacGuffin is.  Why does this limit runners using high Force spirits?

The big guns can come out for two reasons, or at least two categories of reasons - proactive reasons (how important the MacGuffin is), or reactive ones.  Spirits of massive force would bring out the big guns for reactive reasons, and they're far from alone in that.  Any character can do stuff that would call down a massive response - it is, however, possible to bring the magic response in faster than the physical one.
"Speech"
Thoughts
Matrix <<Text>> "Speech"
Spirits and Sprites

MacAnu

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 65
« Reply #43 on: <08-10-13/0239:20> »
Then why does the presence of a high Force spirit commanded by the runners bring out the big guns?  It seems like whether the big guns are brought out or not should be independent of how strong the runners are, but instead be based on how important the MacGuffin is.  Why does this limit runners using high Force spirits?

The big guns can come out for two reasons, or at least two categories of reasons - proactive reasons (how important the MacGuffin is), or reactive ones.  Spirits of massive force would bring out the big guns for reactive reasons, and they're far from alone in that.  Any character can do stuff that would call down a massive response - it is, however, possible to bring the magic response in faster than the physical one.
Name the things other characters can do to bring down a massive response independent of the value of the MacGuffin -- and highlight which ones don't involve heavy collateral damage (which spirits don't do, and also involves destroying things of value independent of the means to do so).

RHat

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6317
« Reply #44 on: <08-10-13/0244:36> »
There's plenty - really, it's a risk any time you're using lethal force and not being at all judicious about it.  Hell, on-site security is typically tasked to delay you until the big guns arrive anyways.
"Speech"
Thoughts
Matrix <<Text>> "Speech"
Spirits and Sprites