[RHat]

To begin with:  Summoning a high force spirit is a last-ditch thing.  You don't do it when the HTR team pulls up (you have much better options at that stage) - you do it when things are looking like they're going against you.  A significant percentage of the time, it will KILL YOU.  People don't go around doing stuff that's got a high chance of killing them - and it's not at all rational behaviour.  And banishing isn't the only countermeasure against spirits; in point of fact, an Ares Alpha with APDS loaded will hurt anything up to Force 18 on a single net hit.  Even just a Predator with APDS will be able to tag any spirit Force 12 or lower. 

As for cover:  The Street Sam can and should be sticking to cover just as much as the mage - he can fire from cover.

As for Enchanting Mages and Riggers, well, Riggers can reasonably expect to have their vehicles with them and such - and can pretty much expect to have their drones with them almost any time they might need them.  Alchemy takes minutes.  That's a lot different from needing a set minimum of materials (that may not be easy to get ahold of, depending on circumstance) and a matter of hours.  You keep bound spirits around, yes, but you have absolutely no flexibility in that arrangement - its fair for a conjurer to have less flexibility, but not to have NONE.

As for the spirit power dynamics - it's a long standing thing, and a good way to deal with spirit power issues (either you have serious issues summoning powerful spirits, or you're being careful with what you're asking them to do, like actually using your spirits for the things they're associated with and not having them take stupid risks for you).

[Ryo]

Spirits are only ungodly powerful against the mundane. Against enemy mages, they get no Hardened Armor, because that only applies to non-magical attacks. That makes them plenty killable.

[RHat]

Spirits are only ungodly powerful against the mundane. Against enemy mages, they get no Hardened Armor, because that only applies to non-magical attacks. That makes them plenty killable.

Same applies to enemy adepts, incidentally.  Of course, once spells like Mana Static are written for SR5, Contact Activation preparations could to pretty horrible things to spirits.

[MacAnu]

To begin with:  Summoning a high force spirit is a last-ditch thing.  You don't do it when the HTR team pulls up (you have much better options at that stage) - you do it when things are looking like they're going against you.  A significant percentage of the time, it will KILL YOU.  People don't go around doing stuff that's got a high chance of killing them - and it's not at all rational behaviour.

If you aren't hurt, the odds of it killing you are tiny.  5.5% chance of dealing 9 or more damage, 3% chance of dealing 10 or more damage, and 1.5% chance of dealing 11 or more damage.  Those might very well be better odds than trying to fight "fair" in combat.

And banishing isn't the only countermeasure against spirits; in point of fact, an Ares Alpha with APDS loaded will hurt anything up to Force 18 on a single net hit.  Even just a Predator with APDS will be able to tag any spirit Force 12 or lower.

Spirits are only ungodly powerful against the mundane. Against enemy mages, they get no Hardened Armor, because that only applies to non-magical attacks. That makes them plenty killable.

The problem isn't punching through Hardened Armor.  The problem is hitting the spirit.  The spirit has a defense dice pool of (Force x2 + X) and it goes up to (Force x3 + X) if it takes Full Defense.  A Force 10 Spirit taking Full Defense averages more successes than the accuracy/physical limit of most starting level characters.  Starting-level characters might be able to scratch it a couple times (full auto spray and lots of praying! ), but between its Force-level Body and its Force x2 Hardened Armor it won't take damage fast enough.  Its attack dice scales similarly at Force x2.  Its damage scales at Force x3 (Engulf + Elemental Aura) with -Force x2 AP, which will probably 1HKO anyone. 

As for cover:  The Street Sam can and should be sticking to cover just as much as the mage - he can fire from cover.

Fair enough.  This does carry a -3 penalty.

As for Enchanting Mages and Riggers, well, Riggers can reasonably expect to have their vehicles with them and such - and can pretty much expect to have their drones with them almost any time they might need them.  Alchemy takes minutes.  That's a lot different from needing a set minimum of materials (that may not be easy to get ahold of, depending on circumstance) and a matter of hours.  You keep bound spirits around, yes, but you have absolutely no flexibility in that arrangement - its fair for a conjurer to have less flexibility, but not to have NONE.

I think Summoners have more flexibility than Riggers.  Riggers have a specific set of drones and vehicles and can have them at all times, except the drones that get killed.  Summoners can have their bound spirits at all times, except right after some have had their services totally expended.  They can summon new spirits on the fly, which riggers can't do.  Compared with Enchanters, preparations last for hours while bound spirits last as long as they need to.

[Ryo]

The problem isn't punching through Hardened Armor.  The problem is hitting the spirit.  The spirit has a defense dice pool of (Force x2 + X) and it goes up to (Force x3 + X) if it takes Full Defense.  A Force 10 Spirit taking Full Defense averages more successes than the accuracy/physical limit of most starting level characters.  Starting-level characters might be able to scratch it a couple times (full auto spray and lots of praying! ), but between its Force-level Body and its Force x2 Hardened Armor it won't take damage fast enough.  Its attack dice scales similarly at Force x2.  Its damage scales at Force x3 (Engulf + Elemental Aura) with -Force x2 AP, which will probably 1HKO anyone.

Then use Area Spells. They're success tests with a threshold, like grenades. Spirit doesn't get to dodge when you nuke the entire space around them.

You could also use Direct Spells, since not a single Spirit gets Counterspelling as a skill. They defend with Force+/-X, or if it targets Willpower, Force only.

[MacAnu]

The problem isn't punching through Hardened Armor.  The problem is hitting the spirit.  The spirit has a defense dice pool of (Force x2 + X) and it goes up to (Force x3 + X) if it takes Full Defense.  A Force 10 Spirit taking Full Defense averages more successes than the accuracy/physical limit of most starting level characters.  Starting-level characters might be able to scratch it a couple times (full auto spray and lots of praying! ), but between its Force-level Body and its Force x2 Hardened Armor it won't take damage fast enough.  Its attack dice scales similarly at Force x2.  Its damage scales at Force x3 (Engulf + Elemental Aura) with -Force x2 AP, which will probably 1HKO anyone.

Then use Area Spells. They're success tests with a threshold, like grenades. Spirit doesn't get to dodge when you nuke the entire space around them.

Pending a further clarification on how area spells work, this would definitely hurt the spirit.  The bigger concern is the spirit travels very fast and can manifest right beside the enemy.  The mage can still blast it, but it would probably involve blasting himself or his entire team.  Combined with the drain, that's probably more suicidal than summoning the spirit in the first place .  The mage gets 1 shot because the elemental deals 1HKO damage and is very likely to hit.  Of course, you can have a whole team of mages, but 1) this path leads to Magicrun, and 2) I don't think a Street Sam has better odds here.

You could also use Direct Spells, since not a single Spirit gets Counterspelling as a skill. They defend with Force+/-X, or if it targets Willpower, Force only.

Problem: the starting-level mage is rolling 12-17 dice against 10 dice with net hits dealing damage.  The spirit has a large condition monitor and has 1HKO damage.  I don't think the mage wins here.

[Ryo]

The problem isn't punching through Hardened Armor.  The problem is hitting the spirit.  The spirit has a defense dice pool of (Force x2 + X) and it goes up to (Force x3 + X) if it takes Full Defense.  A Force 10 Spirit taking Full Defense averages more successes than the accuracy/physical limit of most starting level characters.  Starting-level characters might be able to scratch it a couple times (full auto spray and lots of praying! ), but between its Force-level Body and its Force x2 Hardened Armor it won't take damage fast enough.  Its attack dice scales similarly at Force x2.  Its damage scales at Force x3 (Engulf + Elemental Aura) with -Force x2 AP, which will probably 1HKO anyone.

Then use Area Spells. They're success tests with a threshold, like grenades. Spirit doesn't get to dodge when you nuke the entire space around them.

Pending a further clarification on how area spells work, this would definitely hurt the spirit.  The bigger concern is the spirit travels very fast and can manifest right beside the enemy.  The mage can still blast it, but it would probably involve blasting himself or his entire team.  Combined with the drain, that's probably more suicidal than summoning the spirit in the first place .  The mage gets 1 shot because the elemental deals 1HKO damage and is very likely to hit.  Of course, you can have a whole team of mages, but 1) this path leads to Magicrun, and 2) I don't think a Street Sam has better odds here.

A mage that doesn't notice the presence of a Spirit until it manifests right beside him is doing a terrible job at magical defense. And even if that were a concern, Direct Spells are still an option.

[MacAnu]

Astral movement is 100 meters for walking and 5 kilometers for running.  The spirit can definitely get right beside the mage before the mage can blast it.  Also note my edit regarding direct spells -- I don't think they can deal damage fast enough.

[RHat]

Grenades are also a good option.  High Explosive grenades will damage up to Force 17 spirits.  Anti-Vehicle rockets are good for anything up to about Force 27.

[Ryo]

Astral movement is 100 meters for walking and 5 kilometers for running.  The spirit can definitely get right beside the mage before the mage can blast it.  Also note my edit regarding direct spells -- I don't think they can deal damage fast enough.

I'm seriously confused by your apparent thought pattern here. How common do you honestly think it is for Force 10 Spirits of Fire to run in from 5 kilometers away and appear right next to the enemy and immediately Engulf the entire runner team? Why are you assuming starting character dice pools against shit starting characters really shouldn't be fighting in the first place? I thought your complaint was about players summoning Force 10 spirits, in which case the GM can throw whatever the hell he wants at the player for being stupid enough to do this regularly, including his own stupidly powerful spirits.

[MacAnu]

I'm seriously confused by your apparent thought pattern here. How common do you honestly think it is for Force 10 Spirits of Fire to run in from 5 kilometers away and appear right next to the enemy and immediately Engulf the entire runner team? Why are you assuming starting character dice pools against shit starting characters really shouldn't be fighting in the first place? I thought your complaint was about players summoning Force 10 spirits, in which case the GM can throw whatever the hell he wants at the player for being stupid enough to do this regularly, including his own stupidly powerful spirits.

I'm assuming starting-level runners because Force 10 spirits can be summoned by starting-level runners with a reasonable chance of success if Edge is spent.  Even without Edge, it's roughly 50/50.  It wouldn't be a problem if Force 10 spirits could only be summoned by super-powerful magicians.  That's what I'm trying to do with my proposed nerf.

The spirit doesn't have to fly in from 5 kilometers away.  The scenario I'm envisioning is a team going after a mage in a building.  There's not much time between "Hey, it looks like a powerful spirit is being summoned inside the building!  We should blast it before it gets close." and "Oh no, the spirit is right beside us!  If we blast it with high explosives, we will kill ourselves."

[Ryo]

I'm seriously confused by your apparent thought pattern here. How common do you honestly think it is for Force 10 Spirits of Fire to run in from 5 kilometers away and appear right next to the enemy and immediately Engulf the entire runner team? Why are you assuming starting character dice pools against shit starting characters really shouldn't be fighting in the first place? I thought your complaint was about players summoning Force 10 spirits, in which case the GM can throw whatever the hell he wants at the player for being stupid enough to do this regularly, including his own stupidly powerful spirits.

I'm assuming starting-level runners because Force 10 spirits can be summoned by starting-level runners with a reasonable chance of success if Edge is spent.  Even without Edge, it's roughly 50/50.  It wouldn't be a problem if Force 10 spirits could only be summoned by super-powerful magicians.  That's what I'm trying to do with my proposed nerf.

The spirit doesn't have to fly in from 5 kilometers away.  The scenario I'm envisioning is a team going after a mage in a building.  There's not much time between "Hey, it looks like a powerful spirit is being summoned inside the building!  We should blast it before it gets close." and "Oh no, the spirit is right beside us!  If we blast it with high explosives, we will kill ourselves."

Again, why are you assuming starting characters as the summoners and starting characters as the defenders? If the players are summoning the Force 10, why assume that the GM would have opponents that can't handle it prepared to fight them? If the players can't hope to survive against a Force 10, why assume the GM would use one on them?

There's a serious disconnect here.

[MacAnu]

What's your definition of overpowered?  If the street sam was better than a combat-focused adept in combat, would you think there's a problem?  Shinobi mentioned his players regularly summon Force 6-8 spirits and that's enough to overshadow the combat archetypes in combat.  I focused on Force 10 spirits because they're just ridiculous and it's astounding to me that a starting-level character can summon these with a reasonably high success rate.  I think these are problems, and I think this is enough to show that summoning is overpowered.

[Ryo]

What's your definition of overpowered?  If the street sam was better than a combat-focused adept in combat, would you think there's a problem?  Shinobi mentioned his players regularly summon Force 6-8 spirits and that's enough to overshadow the combat archetypes in combat.  I focused on Force 10 spirits because they're just ridiculous and it's astounding to me that a starting-level character can summon these with a reasonably high success rate.  I think these are problems, and I think this is enough to show that summoning is overpowered.

We have a disagreement on the definition of 'reasonably high success rate,' as well as the definition of overpowered. All the systems are already in place to mitigate spirit abuse if a player thinks this is an instant-win card, and a temporary minion that the mage has to risk killing himself to summon does not limit the value of the Street Sam. Hell, you could put a serious damper on Spirit Summoning with something as simple as a Background Count, which is perfectly likely to turn up just about anywhere. It dramatically reduces their potency, and forcing a spirit into one is abusive and is gonna negatively affect the summoner's relationships with spirits in the long run.

[MacAnu]

We have a disagreement on the definition of 'reasonably high success rate,' as well as the definition of overpowered. All the systems are already in place to mitigate spirit abuse if a player thinks this is an instant-win card, and a temporary minion that the mage has to risk killing himself to summon does not limit the value of the Street Sam. Hell, you could put a serious damper on Spirit Summoning with something as simple as a Background Count, which is perfectly likely to turn up just about anywhere. It dramatically reduces their potency, and forcing a spirit into one is abusive and is gonna negatively affect the summoner's relationships with spirits in the long run.

What's your definition of "reasonably high success rate"?  Someone ran some numbers on F12 spirits on Dumpshock:

If a strong but vanilla magician (Magic 6, Summoning 6, drain attributes 5 each, 10 boxes physical condition monitor) summons a Force 12 spirit, he'll generally pull it off without dying. Assuming he has 1 point of Edge to spend on the attempt (either for summoning or drain, decided after observing the initial summoning roll), he has a 79% chance of getting 1+ services and being conscious afterwards (9% chance of going down from physical damage). On average, he'll end up with 1.9 services and 4.2 boxes of physical damage.

80% chance of basically autowin, and this is 2 more force than necessary.  For normal circumstances, Force 6-8 spirits are strong enough to replace Street Sams and the risk of killing yourself to summon those are very low.

I still haven't seen a proposal which mitigates spirit "abuse" which wouldn't wreck a party/NPC that wasn't using spirits.  Background counts hit both non-summoning mages (who are mostly fine) and summoners alike.  Isn't the fact that spirits require all these excessive countermeasures a sign that they're overpowered?  What does overpowered mean to you, and can you give me an example?