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[SR5] Augmented Maximum for Attributes

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Windshare

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« on: <07-17-13/0426:11> »
Hi !
Just a question : in SR5 what is the "augmented maximum" for attributes ? 1,5 x natural limit ?
I can't find it in the rulebook.

Mäx

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« Reply #1 on: <07-17-13/0437:40> »
From page 94:
Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4.

Its not tied to natural max anymore, it's now always the same +4.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Zamzoph

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« Reply #2 on: <07-17-13/0446:57> »
Quote from: SR5, p.94
First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

An exception that can break this cap is Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers using their wireless bonuses to stack.

Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like other attribute enhancements like magic or drugs have any kind of limit.

Mäx

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« Reply #3 on: <07-17-13/0449:19> »
Quote from: SR5, p.94
First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

An exception that can break this cap is Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers using their wireless bonuses to stack.

Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like other attribute enhancements like magic or drugs have any kind of limit.
Only if you can find  GM dump enough to buy your claim that those aren't augmenting the attribute.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Windshare

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« Reply #4 on: <07-17-13/0557:39> »
Thank's a lot !  :)

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <07-17-13/0733:58> »
WR+RH count towards th same +4 (in this case to reaction)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <07-17-13/0736:04> »
Not true. They explicitly state that they can break the +4 sum if both systems are wirelessly enabled. And yes I know that is a load of bullocks. But it's the rules. It also is a base 5.9 Essence and 256k nuyen for +6 Reaction.
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #7 on: <07-17-13/0926:45> »
Quote from: SR5, p.94
First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

An exception that can break this cap is Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers using their wireless bonuses to stack.

Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like other attribute enhancements like magic or drugs have any kind of limit.
Only if you can find  GM dump enough to buy your claim that those aren't augmenting the attribute.
Why would they have to be dumb?  I'm not dumb, and it doesn't sound like they're citing magic.  It says purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware.  Magic is nothing like those.  It's not a purchased augmentation.  There's no link between that section and magic at all.  It seems to be an assumption on your part that magic would be included.  Now, I'm not saying you're wrong or right.  That's how it worked in 4th, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's how it works in 5th.  Unless someone can find a more applicable entry, this is going to have to be chalked up as a vague non-answered subject.
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Dracain

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« Reply #8 on: <07-17-13/1010:59> »
Quote from: SR5, p.94
First, when purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap.

An exception that can break this cap is Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers using their wireless bonuses to stack.

Now I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like other attribute enhancements like magic or drugs have any kind of limit.
Only if you can find  GM dump enough to buy your claim that those aren't augmenting the attribute.
Why would they have to be dumb?  I'm not dumb, and it doesn't sound like they're citing magic.  It says purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware.  Magic is nothing like those.  It's not a purchased augmentation.  There's no link between that section and magic at all.  It seems to be an assumption on your part that magic would be included.  Now, I'm not saying you're wrong or right.  That's how it worked in 4th, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's how it works in 5th.  Unless someone can find a more applicable entry, this is going to have to be chalked up as a vague non-answered subject.
From the increase attribute spell

The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored).

It mentions an augmented maximum, and I remember reading somewhere else (p.94) that the max bonus you can get from augments of any kind (magic or mundane) is +4. 

Mäx

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« Reply #9 on: <07-17-13/1221:10> »
Why would they have to be dumb?  I'm not dumb, and it doesn't sound like they're citing magic.  It says purchasing augmentations such as cyberware and bioware.  Magic is nothing like those.  It's not a purchased augmentation.  There's no link between that section and magic at all.  It seems to be an assumption on your part that magic would be included.  Now, I'm not saying you're wrong or right.  That's how it worked in 4th, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's how it works in 5th.  Unless someone can find a more applicable entry, this is going to have to be chalked up as a vague non-answered subject.
Ofcource it says when purchasing ware, it's the purchase gear section after all.
Doesn't change the fact that anything that raises the attribute is by very defination an augmentation to that stat and the rule is very simple "max augmentation bonus possible is +4)

Its not good writing that augmented maximum is only mentioned in that one place, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the rules for it.
« Last Edit: <07-17-13/1223:03> by Mäx »
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Zamzoph

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« Reply #10 on: <07-17-13/1445:25> »
I ctrl-f'd through every instance of "augment" in the book.  It seems that "augmentation" refers entirely to cyberware and bioware while to "augment" refers mostly to either enhancing yourself with 'wares (thereby reducing Essence) or AR.

Now there is a spell and a few adept powers  that make reference to an "augmented (Attribute) maximum," which is where I think OP's question comes from in the first place:

Quote from: SR5, p.288 (Increase [Attribute])
The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored).
Quote from: SR5, p.309 (Attribute Boost)
Each hit on this test boosts your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute maximum.
Quote from: SR5, p.309 (Improved Physical Attribute)
This power allows you to exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented maximum.

This is different from the +4 augmentation bonus cap.  I think it all comes down to the following formula:

Quote
Natural Attribute Maximum + Augmentation Bonus Cap = Augmented Attribute Maximum

For example, the natural Attribute maximum for a human's Agility is 6, and the augmentation bonus cap is always 4.  Therefore, a human's augmented attribute maximum is 6 + 4 = 10.  Now suppose we have a human street sam character with a natural Agility of 4 and his augmentation bonus already capped at 4, giving him an augmented Agility of 8.  He can still be further enhanced by an Increase Agility spell and receive up to +2 on his Agility to finally reach the augmented Agility maximum, despite already being at his augmentation bonus cap.

The only thing that throws me off is part of the example text in the character generation section, the only instance of magic being referred to as augmenting something:

Quote from: SR5, p.92
Now that she has selected her skills, she can go back and decide which ones will be augmented by her adept powers. For her Enhanced Accuracy [Skill], she chooses her Automatics skill, and for her Improved Ability [Skill] she chooses Pistols.

Because of this being the odd man out in the entire book, I believe this to simply be a poor choice of words where the writer should have used "enhanced," instead.

On another point, there's absolutely no reference to drugs augmenting anything, or even having a cap or maximum to their Attribute enhancements.

Dracain

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« Reply #11 on: <07-17-13/1501:45> »
Page 94 stuff. 
Quote from: SR5, p.94 Cyberware and Bioware
Keep in mind there are three restrictions when it
comes to purchasing gear. First, when purchasing augmentations
such as cyberware and bioware, each attribute
rating (Mental and Physical) can only receive an
augmentation bonus of up to +4. If the attribute being
raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the
attribute can be raised naturally with Karma; but at no
point can augmentations exceed the +4 bonus cap
. The
second restriction is that at normal character creation,
characters are restricted to a maximum Availability rating
of 12 and a device rating of 6. After character creation,
characters may be able to acquire gear that has a
higher Availability (p. 416) and a higher device rating.
Finally, all gear is subject to gamemaster approval, even
if the gear falls within these restrictions..

ZeConster

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« Reply #12 on: <07-17-13/1505:03> »
Quote
Natural Attribute Maximum + Augmentation Bonus Cap = Augmented Attribute Maximum
This seems like mere speculation on your side. Nothing in the book states this, and it sounds an awful lot like it's just wishful thinking.

Zamzoph

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« Reply #13 on: <07-17-13/1519:01> »
It is speculation, as we're given no definition to what an "augmented Attribute maximum" is.  Without clarification from Catalyst, all we can do is use contextual clues to figure out the definition for ourselves, but in the end, it's still just speculation on all of our parts.  Now from what I gather, I do not equate "the augmentation bonus cap" to be the same thing as "augmented Attribute maximum," but rather the former being something that contributes to the latter.  This mainly comes from the fact that "augmentation" appears to refer exclusively to cyberware and bioware, leading me to conclude  that magical enhancements and drugs don't contribute to the bonus cap.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #14 on: <07-17-13/1521:32> »
Common sense would dictate that anything that improves an attribute augments it and is thus subject to the limit of +4 unless specifically noted as an exception. Therefore, common sense dictates that yes, the drugs and such are limited.
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