[Shade]

2. If hosts are not physical locations and not subject to noise, does that mean interacting with devices slaved to a host also does not suffer noise penalties?

2. No.

Actually, that is incorrect upon rereading the Matrix section. You are NOT subject to noise on devices slaved to a host if you are inside the host itself.

Good catch. Forgot that bit. But your ambient local noise does still affect your other dealings in the host.

It would not affect your dealings with devices slaved to the host. You are considered to have a direct connection to all devices slaved to a host that you are inside. The nomenclature would help here a bit, we're calling devices slaved to a host a WAN.

[Zamzoph]

2. If hosts are not physical locations and not subject to noise, does that mean interacting with devices slaved to a host also does not suffer noise penalties?

Now that I think about it, I may just not be looking in the right place, but does it actually say anywhere that hosts aren't subject to noise?  I see that distance doesn't matter for spotting a host, and being inside a host removes the different-grid penalty along with the distance limit for an "are there silent icons?" Matrix Perception Test, but I can't find anything commenting on a host's relation to noise.

[Aaron]

It would not affect your dealings with devices slaved to the host. You are considered to have a direct connection to all devices slaved to a host that you are inside. The nomenclature would help here a bit, we're calling devices slaved to a host a WAN.

Precisely. Perhaps I should have said "other, non-WAN related dealings" instead.

[Lysanderz]

The book specifically mentions a delay or "Lag" when talking about gaming with people from Grids across the world. So Noise does apply. And in this case (Japan to Seattle) Salt Water applies. Which means: A FUCKTON OF NOISE.

[Elektrycerze3]

After reading all the post in this thread (very helpful, thank you) and a number of other threads, I still have a question.

Let's say you are in a club. The club has a host for all the guests who want to party in VR. Most patrons are in the meat space. Now here is the question: where is all the tech stuff, like stage light controls, smoke machines etc. Is it in the host, but hidden somehow from the VR patrons, or is it in the general Matrix? Specifically, does a hacker need to enter the host to play with all the tech?

[Unahim]

I'll add some questions of my own:

I'm a Rigger, Rigging while physically inside of a Corp building; however, I did not enter their Host. For all intent and purposes, I'm somewhere outside of the Host on the Matrix grid, just somewhere random. How did the enemy Deckers/Spiders find me/find out about me, and what must they do before they engage me? They're in a Host, I'm outside, so technically they can't do any matrix actions against me at all, including Matrix Perception (it's not a specific exception like Send Message), until they pop out of the Host. And even if they do, can they really find me that easily? Can they just do Matrix Perception and find me due to physical proximity, no matter where I am on the Matrix? What if they've put a lot of anti-wireless junk like the paint in their offices? Sure, they're directly connected to all devices through WAN, but not to me right? I'm assuming they -can- find you with Matrix Perception (they find the antenna signal). But they can't -do- anything from where they are, right?

Even better. Before the 'Run, I slip into a Host. Let's say a Social Media site of some description, or a Bar. I find some secluded spot within this Host and pull up some video feeds sent to me by my Drones, which are connected to me. I can now safely control my Drones from where I am in the Matrix, and my enemies not only need to leave the Host they're in to attack me, they need to enter the one I'm in as well. I'm not doing anything illegal (matrix-wise) so the Host has no reason to take note of me, but if some people suddenly crash into the Host and start throwing Cybercombat around, well, that sounds like a good reason to deploy IC to me! It's possible that the enemy contacts the Host I'm on and explains to the Owner what the situation is, but if I'm just on some private Host that has nothing to do with Corps and isn't too professional, that'll take "ages", Matrix-wise. Imagine trying to Contact Facebook to explain to them that someone is using their site to hide as they send commands to killer Drones. It would much more likely take 15-30 minutes rather than just a few turns to get it done.

[Aaron]

The thing about hosts is that there is a nigh-infinite number of configurations that can be applied to them. Consider Elektrycerze3's club. Just in meatspace, how many different ways can the club be configured with furnishings, tables, dance floor(s), stages, bars, control systems, storage areas, and so forth in the building that houses it? Now take that same club and add in the ability to change just about every environmental variable, from gravity to lighting to the size and shape of the building to the number of dimensions the space is in.

I have a strong feeling that there will be plenty more detail about hosts in upcoming source books. In the meantime, consult your friendly GM. =i)

[DeathStrobe]

I'll add some questions of my own:

I'm a Rigger, Rigging while physically inside of a Corp building; however, I did not enter their Host. For all intent and purposes, I'm somewhere outside of the Host on the Matrix grid, just somewhere random. How did the enemy Deckers/Spiders find me/find out about me, and what must they do before they engage me? They're in a Host, I'm outside, so technically they can't do any matrix actions against me at all, including Matrix Perception (it's not a specific exception like Send Message), until they pop out of the Host. And even if they do, can they really find me that easily? Can they just do Matrix Perception and find me due to physical proximity, no matter where I am on the Matrix? What if they've put a lot of anti-wireless junk like the paint in their offices? Sure, they're directly connected to all devices through WAN, but not to me right? I'm assuming they -can- find you with Matrix Perception (they find the antenna signal). But they can't -do- anything from where they are, right?

Even better. Before the 'Run, I slip into a Host. Let's say a Social Media site of some description, or a Bar. I find some secluded spot within this Host and pull up some video feeds sent to me by my Drones, which are connected to me. I can now safely control my Drones from where I am in the Matrix, and my enemies not only need to leave the Host they're in to attack me, they need to enter the one I'm in as well. I'm not doing anything illegal (matrix-wise) so the Host has no reason to take note of me, but if some people suddenly crash into the Host and start throwing Cybercombat around, well, that sounds like a good reason to deploy IC to me! It's possible that the enemy contacts the Host I'm on and explains to the Owner what the situation is, but if I'm just on some private Host that has nothing to do with Corps and isn't too professional, that'll take "ages", Matrix-wise. Imagine trying to Contact Facebook to explain to them that someone is using their site to hide as they send commands to killer Drones. It would much more likely take 15-30 minutes rather than just a few turns to get it done.

Sounds easier to just brick your drones then it would be to kill you. But I like that kind of out of the box thinking.

[Razhul]

I'll add some questions of my own:

I'm a Rigger, Rigging while physically inside of a Corp building; however, I did not enter their Host. For all intent and purposes, I'm somewhere outside of the Host on the Matrix grid, just somewhere random. How did the enemy Deckers/Spiders find me/find out about me, and what must they do before they engage me? They're in a Host, I'm outside, so technically they can't do any matrix actions against me at all, including Matrix Perception (it's not a specific exception like Send Message), until they pop out of the Host. And even if they do, can they really find me that easily? Can they just do Matrix Perception and find me due to physical proximity, no matter where I am on the Matrix? What if they've put a lot of anti-wireless junk like the paint in their offices? Sure, they're directly connected to all devices through WAN, but not to me right? I'm assuming they -can- find you with Matrix Perception (they find the antenna signal). But they can't -do- anything from where they are, right?

Even better. Before the 'Run, I slip into a Host. Let's say a Social Media site of some description, or a Bar. I find some secluded spot within this Host and pull up some video feeds sent to me by my Drones, which are connected to me. I can now safely control my Drones from where I am in the Matrix, and my enemies not only need to leave the Host they're in to attack me, they need to enter the one I'm in as well. I'm not doing anything illegal (matrix-wise) so the Host has no reason to take note of me, but if some people suddenly crash into the Host and start throwing Cybercombat around, well, that sounds like a good reason to deploy IC to me! It's possible that the enemy contacts the Host I'm on and explains to the Owner what the situation is, but if I'm just on some private Host that has nothing to do with Corps and isn't too professional, that'll take "ages", Matrix-wise. Imagine trying to Contact Facebook to explain to them that someone is using their site to hide as they send commands to killer Drones. It would much more likely take 15-30 minutes rather than just a few turns to get it done.

Sounds easier to just brick your drones then it would be to kill you. But I like that kind of out of the box thinking.

They could put some marks on you and trace your physical location, then mess you up there, no?

[Unahim]

My physical location will be inside of a Rigger cocoon built into one of these https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/89840924/Image%201.png , accompanied by the rest of the team, so I'm less worried about my meat body than I am about my Matrix presence. Looking at the seat in that bike it shouldn't be higher than a person, and it's described as the best vehicle for chicken since it just rolls over the other vehicle rather than crashing into it, so I shouldn't have much problem getting it through doors and up stairs.

But yes, they can do it and probably will try.

[Carz]

I'm a Rigger, Rigging while physically inside of a Corp building; however, I did not enter their Host. For all intent and purposes, I'm somewhere outside of the Host on the Matrix grid, just somewhere random.

I’ve ask something similar to this, and I’ll try to give my interpretation, but first note that I think that your icon never leaves your physical location, even when entering a host or whatever, which may not be true based on what errata or explanations are provided later.

First, while not on their host, you need connectivity to your drones. Lets assume that they have NOT put up wireless paint or the like inside their actual building – in that case your drones can run around in there, NOT be on their host, and not be attacked by their IC.

How did the enemy Deckers/Spiders find me/find out about me, and what must they do before they engage me?

Their spiders, *if located in the physical building* could scan for your drones physical location (also in the same building and within 100m, lets assume) via Matrix Perception, and then proceed to attack them, probably cross-grid, since they are on a host, which is on a grid that you might not be on.

They're in a Host, I'm outside, so technically they can't do any matrix actions against me at all, including Matrix Perception (it's not a specific exception like Send Message), until they pop out of the Host. And even if they do, can they really find me that easily?

I assume your Rigger is NOT within 100m of the building then, so they can’t auto-see him and would likely just MARK a drone, so that YOU the drone owner are also MARKed to the spider, and that will auto-show the spider your location, running silent or not.

Can they just do Matrix Perception and find me due to physical proximity, no matter where I am on the Matrix? What if they've put a lot of anti-wireless junk like the paint in their offices? Sure, they're directly connected to all devices through WAN, but not to me right? I'm assuming they -can- find you with Matrix Perception (they find the antenna signal). But they can't -do- anything from where they are, right?

Once they have a mark on you and can see you, I don’t see any reason they can’t act against you, in a host or not.

I can certainly be wrong, but if my PC has a MARK on another icon, I’m supposed to be able to see them wherever they are on the matrix, I don’t think that lapses if they are in a host or if they ‘duck into’ a host, since that’s one of the listed ways that matrix perception spotting lapses.

Even better. Before the 'Run, I slip into a Host. Let's say a Social Media site of some description, or a Bar. I find some secluded spot within this Host and pull up some video feeds sent to me by my Drones, which are connected to me.

Ok the drones are connected to you, and not on the host you are in (because how would they even GET on the host anyways, right?). I think you can do that, because as I note above, you have MARKs on the drones and can thus see them anywhere they go in the matrix.

I can now safely control my Drones from where I am in the Matrix, and my enemies not only need to leave the Host they're in to attack me, they need to enter the one I'm in as well.

Same deal as above in my opinion. They mark your drone, get a mark on you and then attack from where they are. Assuming you are not within 100m, both sides are likely playing with Noise (them to attack you, you to control your drones), but still valid.

I think overall, that I do not believe that a host helps protect your icon from being attacked, mainly in the rigging case because your drones will provide the direct line to you for marking that opponents will need, and in other cases because I think based on physical location (within 100m) anyone can still locate you, host or not.

[Unahim]

They can certainly Mark me through a device, but I don't think they can do anything else from where they are. There's no "unless they are within x meters of you physically, or you have a Mark on them." exception in the text that says that you can take no actions against a target in a Host from outside of it. Likewise they can probably spot my icon, but upon closer inspection they'd then find out I'm in a Host, and outside of their reach unless they give chase. (which they can do) I'm explicitly allowed to "Send Message and the like." to targets outside of the Host, so even assuming I can't take my device's icons along (which I'm not convinced of, since PANs are mentioned as being linked to your persona and anchored to them, and it'd also imply you couldn't share songs from your external storage device to friends on a social media host, since you couldn't access it) I can still order my Drones around. I'd even argue that Command Device in a case like this is nothing but a very specific type of message, just a data stream being sent. It differs from hacking actions and file edits and the like because fluent adjustments to data sent back from the target and reaction to its defenses are not required. It's just coordinates and target information being sent.

That's if I can't bring my devices, and again, I doubt that. Hosts contain many devices, usually in a WAN, but the icon would have had to have been brought in before it was connected to a WAN in the first place. And hey, we're already taking Commlinks and Decks in, and there's no rule -against- device icons in a host anywhere, so the case is sounding flimsy. If I hop a grid I bring my devices, right? I'm not suddenly working across grids? But the devices didn't take "hop grid" actions themselves; ergo, they're connected to me. And since joining a Host is a Jump Grid action... yeah, I believe it works just fine.

The real problem with being in a Host is that it's in effect a public place. Even though I'll be doing nothing wrong, people could be wondering what I'm doing, be curious. And once they find out I was doing "bad stuff" there, well, they'll remember. It's just like AR hacking from a RL café; not exactly the lowest of profiles.

Be careful on a ruling on this. Any actions allowed on me from outside the Host should likewise be applicable the other way around, and attacking Spiders inside of Hosts by putting a Mark on one of their devices and then attacking them without having to go in range of the IC sounds very, very tasty indeed. At least under the current interpretation all I'm doing is being harder to touch in the Matrix, from a defensive angle. But as a Rigger the meat is my true problem, and Shadowrunners can't win on defense, they need to attack.

Perhaps the best ruling (and I think this may be the RAW one, because it's what you do to hack a Host) is that devices stay vulnerable even when inside of hosts through physical proximity, but that personas and anything subsumed by it (like your Deck) don't.

[Carz]

They can certainly Mark me through a device, but I don't think they can do anything else from where they are. There's no "unless they are within x meters of you physically, or you have a Mark on them." exception in the text that says that you can take no actions against a target in a Host from outside of it.

Can you (or anyone) put a page reference to the no actions cross a host?
I can't seem to find it in my book and want to read that section. It seems contradictory to the spotting rules, but maybe you can “see” and not "do".

so even assuming I can't take my device's icons along (which I'm not convinced of, since PANs are mentioned as being linked to your persona and anchored to them, and it'd also imply you couldn't share songs from your external storage device to friends on a social media host, since you couldn't access it) I can still order my Drones around.

I’m actually not sure that sounds right.
Assuming the drones don’t come into the host with you, and you can’t perform actions into or out of a host, then it would stand to reason that the drones can’t be commanded.
I don’t know that’s the case, since I have not yet found the section dealing with cross host actions.

That's if I can't bring my devices, and again, I doubt that. Hosts contain many devices, usually in a WAN, but the icon would have had to have been brought in before it was connected to a WAN in the first place.

From what I’ve read, a host consists of all the devices that it has slaved to it. And slaving is likely to require permission and ownership, so no one ‘from the outside’ can add a device to a node (i.e. slave a device to the node). If they could, that would create a serious security hole.

And hey, we're already taking Commlinks and Decks in, and there's no rule -against- device icons in a host anywhere, so the case is sounding flimsy.

No, no rule at all, just a difficulty in performing the action. A hacker gets a mark on the host, then takes the action to enter it with his persona icon, since he has the required mark. His smartgun (or drone)? It doesn’t have a mark on the host, hasn’t taken the matrix action to enter the host, and isn’t likely to ever GET a mark on the host or take the action required.

If I hop a grid I bring my devices, right? I'm not suddenly working across grids? But the devices didn't take "hop grid" actions themselves; ergo, they're connected to me. And since joining a Host is a Jump Grid action... yeah, I believe it works just fine.

I had not really considered this, and I can see where you’re coming from. It may indeed be what they intended for your devices to ‘enter the host with you’ or hop grids with you, but it’s not cut and dry to me from my reading.

What do you do when your PAN isn’t just your own devices, but other runners you are working with? Do their devices come in with you, or hop grids with you? What grid where they on, and did it change when they got slaved to your ‘link or ‘deck in the first place? (These are really just concept and questions that might help me understand the matrix more, rather than anything I really expect an answer to).

Aside from trying to confuse the host with having a bunch of hidden icons entering, I wouldn’t really WANT my devices suddenly entering the host – that exposes them to IC attacks.

And aside from drones that you command via matrix action, nothing else you have is something you really need to make a matrix command to or from, so working cross grids isn’t a big deal.

Be careful on a ruling on this. Any actions allowed on me from outside the Host should likewise be applicable the other way around, and attacking Spiders inside of Hosts by putting a Mark on one of their devices and then attacking them without having to go in range of the IC sounds very, very tasty indeed.

I’m not really seeing an issue with this against spiders. Spiders are going to be hidden and likely not within 100m of someone outside the host. Heck, they could be very far away in the real world, just relying on being connected to the host making their surveillance of the host noise-free. Trying to attack them based on their real-world position would encounter sever noise. But I’m ok with them getting attack if they ARE within a short distance of the hacker in the real world, since they can retaliate against it. It would be like if both the spider and hacker weren’t in a host at all.

It DOES however bring up an info based and an IC issue – if you MARK the host, you MARK their IC too, since they share. That means when you MARK the host, you can see all the IC that are active in the host at the time. And if you CAN work across hosts via MARKs, then you can attack or manipulate the IC without ever going in. That I can see as an issue. Even just automatically knowing about them seems potentially problematic.

Perhaps the best ruling (and I think this may be the RAW one, because it's what you do to hack a Host) is that devices stay vulnerable even when inside of hosts through physical proximity, but that personas and anything subsumed by it (like your Deck) don't.

Maybe that’s what they intended.
The rules for the matrix section seem simple, but their ramifications are really very complex.
Which means it’s not *really* a *simple* system…

[Unahim]

- Page reference for the action thing: p. 246

The virtual space inside a host is separate from the outside grid. When you’re outside of a host, you can’t interact directly with icons inside it, although you can still send messages, make commcalls, and that sort of thing. Once you’re inside, you can see and interact with icons inside the host, but not outside (with the same caveat for messages, calls, etc.).

Send message is all you need to give Drones orders, and I would say that Control Device is really in the same dimension as making a commcall (just your communication to them is orders, their communication back is video feed or something). So even at its very barest, I'm sure that being inside of a Host and commanding your Drones works. The question is where the Drones's icons are, indeed. Also note that it says here that you can't see icons inside of a host either, which makes sense for personas but muddies the issue for devices once again. I would rule that anything outside of a persona (and icons subsumed by them, like decks and commlinks) can be seen, if the wireless signal isn't being blocked.

- On slaving devices to hosts: If you can't interact or see icons outside of the Host, then in order to link the two up you'd have to bring the device icon -into- the Host, no? Else you can't "target" it with the action, so to speak.

- On the PAN: I suppose only devices slaved that you personally own would come with you... at any rate, problems like this is why devices should stay target-able from outside the Host. The rules just get one big mess if we assume this to not be the case.

- If the Spiders are far away from the scene, they might be harder to detect by proximity, but they also cannot detect the Runners by proximity, or act against them in that way. Also, I suspect corporations want control over their workers. It's why wageslaves and so on often live on the Corporations land, in the corp's buildings, eating at the corp restaurant. I doubt they'd want their Spiders to be away from the watchful eyes in the facility.

Another thing, about WANs:

There are also wide area networks, or WANs, with multiple devices slaved to a host. A host can have a practically unlimited number of devices slaved to it, but because of the direct connection hack you rarely see more devices than can be protected physically. If you are in a host that has a WAN, you are considered directly connected to all devices in the WAN.

A few things here: You rarely see more devices than can be protected physically, but I think it's realistic to expect that a corporation will have need of more devices than what they can physically protect. Those devices would not be in the WAN, but the workers making use of them would more than likely still be in the Host (else they'd have to take archived files and such into the unprotected Grid), so they must take their devices with them onto the Host, right?

Also "If you are in a host that has a WAN, you are considered directly connected to all devices in the WAN." doesn't list any restrictions. You don't need any Marks on the Host, or anything. If you enter the Host, you have a direct connection to the WAN devices. Entering a host is relatively easy to do, and the test is rather unique in that it carries little consequence for failure, unlike every other hacking test. And once you do (eventually) make it, you're directly connected to the WAN automatically, so you pick the most vulnerable device and slap 3 marks on it (direct connection = it can't use the master's ratings to defend). That puts 3 Marks on the Host as well. And you can spot a Host from anywhere on the planet and enter it (p. 235), and once you enter it you've got direct connections to devices (= no Noise), so you can do this from home easily. Considering how bad these drawbacks are, I can't see any corp putting low-rating devices on the WAN, since they're such an easy target; therefore it makes sense that these devices can be brought into the Host to still be used, but -without- being in the WAN and causing security holes.

Yeah, I think the Matrix has some issues.

The best ruling, imo, is that you can take your devices with you for purposes of interacting with them (or just allow "legal" actions between you and your devices, treating them as sent messages and commcalls), but that they're still accessible on the grid. Otherwise it's either too secure (if the devices are fully in the Host) or unworkable (if you can't use devices in a Host). With this interpretation (which, as I said, could be RAW, based on the sending messages and commcalls examples) it seems to work. You can protect your persona with a Host, but your devices are still vulnerable. If a Decker starts bricking all your gear, you're still going to have to go out there and deal with it. It seems to work fine to me.

[SlugShaman]

Also "If you are in a host that has a WAN, you are considered directly connected to all devices in the WAN." doesn't list any restrictions. You don't need any Marks on the Host, or anything. If you enter the Host, you have a direct connection to the WAN devices. Entering a host is relatively easy to do, and the test is rather unique in that it carries little consequence for failure, unlike every other hacking test. And once you do (eventually) make it, you're directly connected to the WAN automatically, so you pick the most vulnerable device and slap 3 marks on it (direct connection = it can't use the master's ratings to defend). That puts 3 Marks on the Host as well. And you can spot a Host from anywhere on the planet and enter it (p. 235), and once you enter it you've got direct connections to devices (= no Noise), so you can do this from home easily. Considering how bad these drawbacks are, I can't see any corp putting low-rating devices on the WAN, since they're such an easy target; therefore it makes sense that these devices can be brought into the Host to still be used, but -without- being in the WAN and causing security holes.

Yeah, I think the Matrix has some issues.

I think, based on this "in the Host, directly connected to all WAN devices" and "direct connections use device rating for defense" combination, this rule cannot be written as it was initially intended.  It just makes no sense.  As stated above, absolutely any (nearly consequence-free) marking of a Host results in immediate direct connection to all devices on its WAN, which allows for incredibly easy hacking.  This makes no sense in terms of either realism or game balance.  This must be a misstated line that should read "If you are connected to an icon slaved to a Host that has a WAN, you are considered directly connected to all devices in the WAN".  This would allow situations such as the example story of physically jacking into a door lock and accessing the Host and its files and devices while not allowing silliness such as bypassing Host defenses with nothing more than a single mark on the Host (which is nearly consequence-free and can be even given freely).  Such an interpretation would mean that "public" Hosts such as a Stuffer Shack freely invite anyone to direct connections to cameras and the like.