[Bull]

The power was changed late in development and the examples and archetypes weren't fixed. 

You can buy the power multiple times, but each time it applies only to one attack type.  So you can take 2 ranks of Critical Strike, and apply one to Blades and one to Unarmed Combat, for example.

Yes, that means metahumans like Orks and Trolls have an edge.  there's a reason for that. 

In interviews with Bruce Lee, he would often get asked who would win in a fight between him and Muhammad Ali (who was at the top of his game at the time).  He said that Ali would kill him, because he's so much bigger and stronger.  Bruce was faster, more agile, and harder to hit, but one blow from Ali would destroy him, while Ali was tough enough to take quite a few shots from him.

Here's one such article:



Bull

[Mäx]

Yes, that means metahumans like Orks and Trolls have an edge.  there's a reason for that. 

In interviews with Bruce Lee, he would often get asked who would win in a fight between him and Muhammad Ali (who was at the top of his game at the time).  He said that Ali would kill him, because he's so much bigger and stronger.  Bruce was faster, more agile, and harder to hit, but one blow from Ali would destroy him, while Ali was tough enough to take quite a few shots from him.

Thats an awesome explanation for why Troll naturally have much higher unarmed damage and better damage resistance then humans/elves.
But in no way what so ever relevant on why an adept power was suddenly nerfed to only +1 DV.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes, that means metahumans like Orks and Trolls have an edge.  there's a reason for that. 

In interviews with Bruce Lee, he would often get asked who would win in a fight between him and Muhammad Ali (who was at the top of his game at the time).  He said that Ali would kill him, because he's so much bigger and stronger.  Bruce was faster, more agile, and harder to hit, but one blow from Ali would destroy him, while Ali was tough enough to take quite a few shots from him.

Thats an awesome explanation for why Troll naturally have much higher unarmed damage and better damage resistance then humans/elves.
But in no way what so ever relevant on why an adept power was suddenly nerfed to only +1 DV.

Exactly. They basically just stamped a big we don't serve your kind sign up on humans and elves for close combat. I guess they can all go aug adepts to take the suck off but the limit is crippling.  Oh well easy enough to house rule the stupid off this rule.

[ZeConster]

Dwarves and Orks get +2 Strength on Humans and Elves, Trolls +4 (but -1 max Agility). With the strongest melee weapon, the combat axe, and softcapped Strength, that's 10P vs, 12P vs. 14P - so 20% and 40% more damage. That's not as dramatic as you make it sound, really, especially since Troll(5) requires priority A compared to Elf(6) at B and Human(5) at C. If you "house rule the stupid off this rule", you're basically taking the only thing Trolls are actually good for away from them.

[Crunch]

Yes, that means metahumans like Orks and Trolls have an edge.  there's a reason for that. 

In interviews with Bruce Lee, he would often get asked who would win in a fight between him and Muhammad Ali (who was at the top of his game at the time).  He said that Ali would kill him, because he's so much bigger and stronger.  Bruce was faster, more agile, and harder to hit, but one blow from Ali would destroy him, while Ali was tough enough to take quite a few shots from him.

Thats an awesome explanation for why Troll naturally have much higher unarmed damage and better damage resistance then humans/elves.
But in no way what so ever relevant on why an adept power was suddenly nerfed to only +1 DV.

Exactly. They basically just stamped a big we don't serve your kind sign up on humans and elves for close combat. I guess they can all go aug adepts to take the suck off but the limit is crippling.  Oh well easy enough to house rule the stupid off this rule.

Why?

Seriously a 4 St Adept with critical strike is doing 5p physical now for the same cost as doing 3p under the old rules. They're attacking as often as a pistol, doing twice as much damage and have intercept as an added bonus.

[Mäx]

Seriously a 4 St Adept with critical strike is doing 5p physical now for the same cost as doing 3p under the old rules. They're attacking as often as a pistol, doing twice as much damage and have intercept as an added bonus.

Who's doing twice as much damage as pistol?
Not the str 4 adept with critical strike, thats for sure.

[Crunch]

Seriously a 4 St Adept with critical strike is doing 5p physical now for the same cost as doing 3p under the old rules. They're attacking as often as a pistol, doing twice as much damage and have intercept as an added bonus.

Who's doing twice as much damage as pistol?
Not the str 4 adept with critical strike, thats for sure.

Sorry, twice as much damage as melee in SR4.

[Mäx]

Seriously a 4 St Adept with critical strike is doing 5p physical now for the same cost as doing 3p under the old rules. They're attacking as often as a pistol, doing twice as much damage and have intercept as an added bonus.

Who's doing twice as much damage as pistol?
Not the str 4 adept with critical strike, thats for sure.

Sorry, twice as much damage as melee in SR4.

Not really no, my SR4 tiger shifter adept does 10+ physical damage with her bare claws.
Heck even a normal martial artist adept can get around there.

[Bull]

Thats an awesome explanation for why Troll naturally have much higher unarmed damage and better damage resistance then humans/elves.
But in no way what so ever relevant on why an adept power was suddenly nerfed to only +1 DV.

Yeah, sorry, was responding specifically to SHinobi.

As for why?  Because melee damage got ridiculous.  I played the original version of Matt Wrath as my playtest character (Season 5 Missions NPC and new Jackpoint character).  Just using unarmed, between 4 ranks of Crit Strike, maxed out Strength, some increased strength, and increased unarmed combat, he was doing 13P before I added in any net hits,  And that was as an ELF.  Change that character to a Troll, and you have a character punching through tanks.

Then swap unarmed for blades, and give him a Katana or Combat Axe, and watch his damage jump another few points.

granted, you can still do that.  But it's a bit more sane now.  But I know I saw this build at least twice just in the playtests I was in, and I imagine other playtests had it as well, which led to it being toned down.

Bull

[Mäx]

As for why?  Because melee damage got ridiculous.  I played the original version of Matt Wrath as my playtest character (Season 5 Missions NPC and new Jackpoint character).  Just using unarmed, between 4 ranks of Crit Strike, maxed out Strength, some increased strength, and increased unarmed combat, he was doing 13P before I added in any net hits,  And that was as an ELF.

You could get around there in in SR4 too, why is itt suddenly a big problem(especially considering that gun damages and armor values went up)
Now you can't get decent melee damage at all as a non-troll.

[ZeConster]

Strength 5 + Critical Strike gives 11P/-4 with a combat axe - that's comparable to what the sports rifles do. If you splurge on Exceptional Attribute and hardcap Strength, it's 13P/-4 - equal to the middle sniper rifle.
If you allowed Critical Strike to stack, Strength 5 + Critical Strike 6 would give you 16P/-4, which means a Human or Elf with Strength softcapped could hit harder than a grenade to the chest (yes, this is also what a Troll with Strength hardcapped is able to do if Critical Strike doesn't stack), while a Troll with Strength hardcapped at 10 would have 21P/-4, which is equal to the most powerful weapon in the book - an Anti-vehicle rocket.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

I'm not seeing the problem.  You think it's wrong that the strongest elf isn't as strong as the strongest ork/dwarf/troll?  I think it's obvious that they won't be as strong.  Critical strike stacking has nothing to do with racial equality.  An elf with crit strike 5 still won't hit as hard as a troll with crit strike 5.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why its bad let me count the ways 

Unarmed damage will blow for any non monster build that isnt troll 
titanium bone lacing gets you +3 dv on top of its damage resist stuff, why do adepts get handicapped more than that in their archetypal role 
it does not fit the setting for an adrpts punches to hit for barely any effrct over a mundane
It narrows builds down to strength focus only for melee combat
if combat axe guy was a problem at tge high end maybe yiu should have looked at mêlée weapons and not all strength bssed combat 

while its nice to curtail broken things it should never be at the expense of the standard user  forcing high levels of optimization just to be effective is a much larger design flaw than relying on gms to say hey can you tone it back 

The game should supoort its clasic roles for all the metatypes and unarned physical adept is one of them  you can be an effective troll hacker without cheesing the system even if its not the best choice  you cant be an effective human or elf unamed fighter or likely thrown weapon guy  withiut cheesing things.  If it was ranked humsns coukd at keast become effective snd be competatve even if not the best choice.  Now nit do much.   Who knew bullseye iron fist etc were trolls 

[ZeConster]

Keep in mind that this is not counting Attribute Boost and Improved Physical Attribute: An Elf with 5 Strength, Attribute Boost 1 (Strength), Astral Perception, Improved Reflexes 2, Improved Physical Attribute 1 (Strength), Critical Strike and Killing Hands (5.75 PP spent) will still be able to have an average Strength of 8, giving 9P damage with unarmed attacks, which is comparable to what Heavy Pistols do. Plus that 9P goes right through Immunity to Normal Weapons and works during astral combat, and as of 5e, that Heavy Pistol won't have twice as many attacks as your fists anymore.

[Ravennus]

titanium bone lacing gets you +3 dv on top of its damage resist stuff, why do adepts get handicapped more than that in their archetypal role 

I created an account just to point this out.

One of the few advantages adepts had was in unarmed combat.  The Street Sam could always compete with 'ware, but having a really high Unarmed DV was the realm of the adept.
This has little to do with realism.  This is MAGIC afterall!  And what better way to portray the iconic fictional image of the little martial arts guy beating the crap out of things much bigger than him?

I think that might have been lost sight of, personally.

Now the mundanes have Bone Lacing and Bone Density augs, which both allow for up to a +3 unarmed DV bonus..... that's 2 more than an adept can now have.
While the example about Bruce Lee and smaller people fit regarding mundanes.... I don't think that magical adepts should suffer the same fate.
One of the things I've always loved about Shadowrun was how you could make these cool concept characters work.  If 'ware couldn't do it, then magic could... and vice versa.