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Help with making combat more challenging for my group!

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Mara

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« Reply #15 on: <07-07-13/1133:58> »
Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.

Funny story....they beat the Johnsons goons in one round....then tracked the Johnson down, beat his guards, then got their payment and sold the Johnson to Horizon...the corp that the Jonson had hired them to do a run against...the word among
Johnsons is "if you are going to backstab these guys...make sure it works...you only get one chance..."

I_V_Saur

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« Reply #16 on: <07-07-13/1136:43> »
Use backstabbing Johnsons. Give them a tough run, where they get ambushed, and then the Johnson won't pay them - doesn't even show. Just another ambush. Then they have to hunt him down, and he's trying to flee the country. If they cut their losses, they're still dealing with the label 'terrorist', and a lot of airtime. If they skip town, they don't have as many contacts, the area is unfamiliar, and every local criminal group is going to be pushing them around. Even if they only take one or two damage every encounter, if you don't let them heal for several combats, they'll be feeling the hurt.

Funny story....they beat the Johnsons goons in one round....then tracked the Johnson down, beat his guards, then got their payment and sold the Johnson to Horizon...the corp that the Jonson had hired them to do a run against...the word among
Johnsons is "if you are going to backstab these guys...make sure it works...you only get one chance..."

So they've got their heads on straight, and their rep is pretty solid. Definitely paracritters. Or a run in with a forest of man-eating trees.

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #17 on: <07-07-13/1148:15> »
1. Make them defend some squishy targets and pay them based on how they survive

2. Explosives, stun grenades and area effects. Explosives are often the best way to take nearly anything down, but it's also treading on dangerous TPK and angry player territory. The other thing is that corps often don't want to blow their own place and stuff up. Stun grenades and smoke grenades are better. Just having guards toss around stun grenades and duck behind desks is hideously effective. Actually, it can also lead to a TPK, as I was a player in one recently. (Although it was Company Men tossing the grenades, not rentacops, so that also made it works so well, perhaps too well, because even if the throw fails, a building is an enclosed area and there's still a decent chance of PCs being stunned. And even if the guards stun themselves, the players were going to kill them anyway. And there can be more guards. Kind of a cheap tactic, but not too bad if used by rentacops.

3. Just some smoke grenades, rentacops, and some doors not connected to the Matrix can cause a team to fail a shadowrun due to time constraints and the police coming.

4. Open ground and guards with sniper rifles or hunting rifles. Towers for them if you want it worse. And if you really want to be a jerk, make it an MTC Zero Zone with killer drones, gun enmplacements, and clouds of nerve gas.

5. If your players are walking around in military spec armor, take it away. There are missions where it's possible to wear it, but they shoudn't be the norm. Make use of checkpoints. My street sam is nearly always forced to use Ingram Smartguns, precisely because they are concealable.

6. Pincer movements. This is usually done by SWAT and response teams. They come at the runners from more than one direction. Make use of skirmishers too, just like you'd do in a strategy war game. Some light forces whose job isn't to win, but to just distract or pin down the runners, while the experts flank them. The skirmishers may make use of grenades or smoke grenades.

7. Design the battlefield to favor the defending corp forces. Give them cover and take the runner's away.

8. Ninja archers, especially strong ones.

9. Spirits. These make great skirmisher forces, as mentioned above.

10. Ares Screech and sonic weapons.

11. Vehicle combat. My players are frightened of this because crashes are so deadly.


Quote
.So they've got their heads on straight, and their rep is pretty solid. Definitely paracritters. Or a run in with a forest of man-eating trees.
Ah yes, packs of hellhounds.





« Last Edit: <07-07-13/1150:28> by GiraffeShaman »

Walks Through Walls

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« Reply #18 on: <07-07-13/1158:56> »
The last run my group did I ambushed their vehicle. Literally had the bad guys pull in front of them to get them to stop. (it mainly worked) As the troll mage threw open the back to pile out and start hitting back he saw the incoming grenade and put up a physical barrier around the vehicle instead. Two people from the rooftops had the back covered and when he dropped the spell and made a run for it had to put up with suppression fire and another grenade.

It became fairly intense and they were worried, but made it through pretty easily when all was said and done because they worked together.

A question that comes to mind is are the players feeling or complaining combat is too easy? I know at times I think they walked the combat because it didn't last as long as I had hoped, but the players are talking about how worried they were during it.

Another time the group was ambushed coming out of their meet with the Mr. Johnson so they weren't in their "main" armor. The group's tank took the initial sniper shot and ran inside because he took 6-7 boxes of damage. Again they fought off the attack fairly quickly, but were worried about it.

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emsquared

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« Reply #19 on: <07-07-13/1217:30> »
They only have 1 mage? Throw two mages at them, once Counterspelling is used up on the obvious Blaster Mage, let the subtle Manipulation Mage do his/her thing. i.e. suddenly that Heavy Troll's guns are pointed at the Group...

Nal0n

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« Reply #20 on: <07-07-13/1636:01> »
And if you send mages against them I suggest being creative with Elemental Effects!
My personal favorites include:

Sound - Stun Damage with no Armor and possible nauseating (SM, p. 165)
Sand - Physical damage, Half Impact Armor, may jam unsealed Weapons (SM, p. 165)
Light - Physical damage, Half Impact Armor, Glare Modifier (SM, p. 164)

Especially Half Impact Armor + Stun Damage work pretty well on High Body Soakers.
« Last Edit: <07-07-13/1638:14> by Nal0n »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <07-07-13/1854:01> »
Against armor: acid? =)
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Mara

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« Reply #22 on: <07-07-13/2036:50> »
Funny you guys should mention Paracritters....
They Roflstomped in one run the following: A pack of hellhounds, a group of biodrone wolverines, and a group of genetically engineered and modified "Weaponized Drop Bears."  (this run, BTW, was to pay for the cleaning of the Appaloosa they liberated
off some mercs guarding a target they were after....)


GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #23 on: <07-07-13/2054:42> »
Quote
Funny you guys should mention Paracritters....
They Roflstomped in one run the following: A pack of hellhounds, a group of biodrone wolverines, and a group of genetically engineered and modified "Weaponized Drop Bears."  (this run, BTW, was to pay for the cleaning of the Appaloosa they liberated
off some mercs guarding a target they were after....)

Hey...Drop Bears don't exist...

Hahah, I did say packs of hellhounds, as in plural. And make them toxic and with bees coming out their mouths. :)

wired dobermans are my favorites. They always freak people out well out of proportion to how dangerous they are.

Wyrms and other water hazards are great. Runners are pretty vulnerable in general out on the water.

Muscular_Bevar

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« Reply #24 on: <07-08-13/0059:59> »
Just my two cents but using "traps" to weaken the characters and put them at a disadvantage before the fight might be helpful...?

Dont over do it or make it impossible to defend against but nanites, toxins, freeze foam, glue, plenty of other chemicals, gases and fog etc. There are so many ways to knock a few dice out of thier pools and even the odds, especially when they are targeted by the traps or the defenders know whats coming (cause they put it there) and are geared appropriatley.

you know the kinda of things your guys carry and what they are proteced from, find some things that they might have over looked and use them. also be creative, Hellhounds are big and dangerous but also presnt a large target, paracritter bugs on the other hand (or even microdrones) are small, hard to notice, hard to hit, and can pack a punch thru toxins, tasers etc.

when the 22 dice pool becomes a more managable 14 those corp sec may start being more than just meat for the grinder...
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I_V_Saur

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« Reply #25 on: <07-08-13/1107:09> »
Okay. How much karma are they sitting on, here?

Solo

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« Reply #26 on: <07-08-13/1119:51> »
Have you thought of simply putting a strong team against them... A big fat troll with a canon, to show your troll how it is done...

Adversaries don't have to be gangers or security guards. two runner teams could be sent on the same objectives. Most of the run will follow the normal rules of your characters out gunning anything around, only to be surprised by an equaly good team. They could become ennemis or friends depending on how the scene is played.

Marlowe

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« Reply #27 on: <07-08-13/1407:17> »
Sometimes it's okay to retire your runner team.  If they're walking over everything but cyberzombies, master shedim and great dragons it might be time to re-roll.
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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #28 on: <07-08-13/1421:05> »
Quote
Sometimes it's okay to retire your runner team.  If they're walking over everything but cyberzombies, master shedim and great dragons it might be time to re-roll.
That time is way up there though, and story is also a factor. The funny thing is that the game is set up so that the real main Megacorp sites are very very hard to hit. (The Seattle Azzie Pyramid for example) I pretty much never see a campaign last long enough for that to even happen. Most of our targets are lesser. The exception being when the Johnson hands the team an insider or some type of entry. I did that one time to allow a team to penetrate the Azzie pyramid in Seattle for an extraction, but it was done by one Azzie faction hiring the runners to embarrass another faction.

The game isn't set up very well for the one big boss monster of the week type thing either. Exceptions to this such as Great Dragons are usually behind the scenes players. It's about the shadowrunner team versus security systems (Of which monsters and guards are only part of that system) Just look at how many spirits of high force are available to all the mages in the Azzie pyramid. There isn't a runner in existence who can just run up there with his assault cannon and live out a Pink Mohawk fantasy. (Unless a GM really wants that to happen)
« Last Edit: <07-08-13/1423:23> by GiraffeShaman »

Crunch

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« Reply #29 on: <07-08-13/1622:08> »
Another option for ramping up difficulty is the survival horror model. Let the players be trapped somewhere (they're extraction is blown on a run in the Yucatan, or they're inside the ACHE when the salvagers wake up a latent Deus fragment, or they're guests at an ARES firewatch training facility when the commanding officers are taken by bug spirits) with limited ability to escape or resupply. The drama comes not from the difficulty of any individual beasty, but from not knowing whether the ammo will last.