NEWS

[SR5] Gernades over powered?

  • 130 Replies
  • 45847 Views

Tsuzua

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 633
« Reply #30 on: <06-17-13/1709:45> »
There is no dodge test for Grenades.  It's a straight up single threshold test.  WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same.  It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.

There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet.  Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.

Grenades only stack a little.  You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only.  You get no extra DV for grenades past the second.  You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.

So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage).  They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.

Grenades are dangerous.  Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.

Bull
Then what does "This method uses the standard Ranged Attack rules but adds an extra step if it misses the target (no net hits on attack roll)" (SR5O 181) mean under the entry for Motion Sensor? Especially when special grenades rules are listed before in the same section? If you never target a person with a grenade, then how does one get the Targeted by an Area-Affect Attack defense modifier which stats "Apply a -2 modifier when trying to defend against weapons like spells, grenades, rockets, or missiles with a blast or area effect (SR5O 190)" for things other than spells? Rockets and missiles fall under the same heading as grenade launchers so they full under the same rules.

I will admit that the grenade stacking only applies to two grenades because it explicitly says "when two explosions occur on the same Combat Initiative Score and both blast effect the same character add half the value of the lower DVs to the highest DV and apply it all as a single modified Damage Value for the purposes of Damage Resistance tests. For AP calculations, use the best AP and improve it by 1 for every additional explosion (SR5O 183)." That means technically a lot of stuff could happen when three or more grenades blow. They could merge together like you say, you could start merging them so the first grenade adds to the second which then adds to the third, or they could pair off (so it's one 24P blast and a second 16P blast).

Honestly, grenades and other explosives have enough drawbacks that they aren't the go-to weapon for all situations. It's just that two grenades are a huge deal and need to be factored into all combats particularly why they aren't grenades used by either side this fight. There's also Flash-Bang which do the still respectable 10S -4 AP and have far fewer drawbacks and are restricted legality. They don't even have drop off due to range so you could multiple attack with them and a bit of missing won't matter.

I do think there ought to be a "dive for cover" interrupt action that gives you some movement "early" for this and other AE attacks. My off the cuff thought is -10 Initiative Score, allows you to move your agility in meters (or just 1-2 meters) and makes you prone. Hit the Dirt is close, but just leaves you in place.

Crunch

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2268
« Reply #31 on: <06-17-13/1723:37> »
I'd say test Reaction + Edge with 1 meter per hit and a -5 to init just like Intercept or hit the dirt myself.

DireRadiant

  • *
  • SRM FAQ Committee
  • Omae
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • The Dragon Never Sleeps
« Reply #32 on: <06-17-13/1854:41> »
Interaction between Motion Sensor Grenades, ArmTech MGL-12 using a Complex Action to fire a Semi Automatic Burst, Multiple Attacks and Multiple Simultaneous Blasts rules is unknown. We need a sidebar.

Sipowitz

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 340
  • Smile for the camera
« Reply #33 on: <06-17-13/2015:45> »
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
As they should be.  Grenades are nothing to stick your nose up at.

Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :)  And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
How's does this work for Missions where characters come and go so easily?

*doh.  For some reason I had it as rolling 16p  absolutely no idea why I kept thinking that.
« Last Edit: <06-17-13/2023:03> by Sipowitz »

Baquette

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 70
« Reply #34 on: <06-17-13/2018:23> »
16P -2 AP compared to 20 soak dices will result in around 10-12 damage + net hits. Yeah, with usual 10 boxes of life thats pretty ... lethal. Or was the armor system revamped?

MfG
« Last Edit: <06-17-13/2021:24> by Baquette »

jamesfirecat

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 170
« Reply #35 on: <06-17-13/2023:05> »
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
16p-2ap  compared to 12-15 armor? That's going to average out to 0-2 damage?  That's too lethal to you?

Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs... :)  And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.
How's does this work for Missions where characters come and go so easily?

Um the 12/15 armor only soaks damage if you roll a success (a 5 or a six on a six sided die) the 16 P does 16 Damage that needs to be soaked if it connects ALL THE TIME.

1 Damage can only be soaked on average by THREE opposing armor.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9924
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #36 on: <06-17-13/2026:03> »
I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.
As they should be.  Grenades are nothing to stick your nose up at.
Correct, grenades being an actual threat is good. But 3 hits on an unopposed test meaning you kill someone seems... Off. So I really can't wait until I have the full rules in my own hands.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Baquette

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 70
« Reply #37 on: <06-17-13/2032:38> »
Well, the rules have already been explained by Bull.

SYL

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9924
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #38 on: <06-17-13/2035:45> »
An explanation which some found to not match the rules in their Origins edition, so I'll wait until I got the exact rules in my own hands before I draw conclusions.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Warmachinez

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 193
« Reply #39 on: <06-17-13/2146:01> »
An explanation which some found to not match the rules in their Origins edition, so I'll wait until I got the exact rules in my own hands before I draw conclusions.

You and me both!
Chaos? Lack of protection? Enemies lurking in the shadows? Sounds
to me like the fun’s just beginning. Sorry you’ll miss it, omae.
> Kane

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2703
« Reply #40 on: <06-17-13/2250:12> »
There is no dodge test for Grenades.  It's a straight up single threshold test.  WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same.  It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.

There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet.  Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.

Grenades only stack a little.  You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only.  You get no extra DV for grenades past the second.  You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.

So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage).  They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.

Grenades are dangerous.  Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.

Bull

Quick question, I know its been this way since SR1.  But why can't you dodge grenades when you can dodege the fireball or the bullet.  A grenade is moving at you a ton slower as a fireball, so why isn't there the standard reaction+intuition test vs grenades?

Edit apparently in the magic thread you mention indirect area spells use the same rule 3 hits and you hit the area.  Not overpowered with magic since you wont be casting any force 12 fireballs.
« Last Edit: <06-17-13/2258:20> by Shinobi Killfist »

Dragonslayer

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 210
« Reply #41 on: <06-18-13/0444:43> »
Who casts Fireball anyway?  The Drain on those stupid things was way to high.

Better to use a grenade in most cases.

Black

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1620
  • Rocking the Shadows since 1990
« Reply #42 on: <06-18-13/0647:12> »
Why wouldn't you cast a force 12 something in the right circumstances.  1 or 2 body is worth instant killing a bunch of things.  Goooooo  Mana Bolt aka Splat Spell!
Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4+hb+++B?UB+IE+W+sa+m-gmM--P

Wildcard

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
  • Hex.tall was here.
« Reply #43 on: <06-18-13/0957:14> »
Personally, I don't understand how a grenade is allowed to explode wirelessly with this new MEGA GOD CONTROLLED MATRIX 3.0. If security really is this strong and pervasive, why would any grenade be allowed to explode in populous areas, especially high sec zones?

I was permanently banned from the forums for consistently attacking my fellow posters and trolling the boards. I thought I could get "revenge" on FastJack for being banned by updating my sig to insult him, but all it proved was how much of an idiot I am.

Bull

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Crotchety Old Ork Decker
« Reply #44 on: <06-18-13/1042:36> »
Shinobi:  You can't dodge a Fireball now. Area of Effect Indirect COmbat Spells now use the same rules as grenades, including scatter.

Wildcard:  The Matrix and GODs are pervasive, but they are not everywhere at once. It takes a little while for them to track you and shut you down.  Something that's just a quick little action like a wireless grenade? Impossible to track because it isn't active long enough. Plus, corp security sometimes uses grenades.

Bull

 

Register