[Crunch]

Not a rules issue, but a team that overused HE grenades would end up with a reputation in my games. That kind of major havok is the kind of thing that steers employers away from a team unless they're hiring for maximum disruption jobs. Likewise I doubt that many corporate security teams would use grenades as they would tend to damage the facility.

One of my major beefs with some of the earlier SR systems was that grenades simply weren't lethal enough.

[Michael Chandra]

Let them aim at specific spots to cause environmental damage (cause a wall to collapse, for example), let them do the opposed test for hitting people.

[jamesfirecat]

Not a rules issue, but a team that overused HE grenades would end up with a reputation in my games. That kind of major havok is the kind of thing that steers employers away from a team unless they're hiring for maximum disruption jobs. Likewise I doubt that many corporate security teams would use grenades as they would tend to damage the facility.

One of my major beefs with some of the earlier SR systems was that grenades simply weren't lethal enough.

I think grenades have become too lethal, or at least undodgeable wireless grenades are.

If I had to sum up my "crunch" problems with grenades it would be with the following piece of math.

HE grenades do 16P-2AP.

If a force six mage casts a fireball spell at force six, and somehow gets six nets hits (no hits to dodge at all from his target) then he does 12 P-6AP.

With every 3 AP being roughly equivalent being to another DV that's about 14P.. (The only time doing huge armor decreases is better than doing moderately more damage is if they're spending edge to soak and if they're doing that then you're once again winning by default)

A force seven mage casts a fireball spell at force seven and somehow gets seven net hits that is  14 P-7AP

That is equivalent to roughly around 16P -1AP..

Granted, the spread on grenades will make them a little bit worse for AOEing a group that is far apart, but I don't have the book in front of me to look at if magic AOE spells have a fall off rate and if so what is it.

If you do not want to overcast and risk coughing up a lung a mage has to get to magic 8 before he can cast a spell which is a better AOE than a rigger with an Ares Alpha firing HE grenades.

Also that mage needs a magic pool of 18 dice to get six hits just on average, and 21 to get seven, 24 to get eight.  A rigger can reliably get the three hits he needs to make his wireless grenades land on target with just 15 dice.  (3 Agility, 6 Heavy Weapons, Specilizations Grenade Launcher, Wireless mode enabled on the Ares Alpha, and a reflex recorder for heavy weapons).

If grenades are AOEing better and take less effort than magic AOE.... I think they've become too strong.

[Crunch]

Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.

[jamesfirecat]

Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.

The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.

People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.

The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.

[Aaron]

Don't forget that overcasting has changed. You're not overcasting unless you get more hits than your Magic rating. Throughput instead of bandwidth, as it were.

[jamesfirecat]

Don't forget that overcasting has changed. You're not overcasting unless you get more hits than your Magic rating. Throughput instead of bandwidth, as it were.

Ah okay when I get a chance I'll have to take a look at the exact rules, though since my examples were not taking into account the damage level or two (or three or four) that would be lost to the enemy trying to get out of the way, I think the rough mad probably holds something close to even.

[Ghoulfodder]

Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.

The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.

People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.

The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.

Presumably you can still use a FA weapon to do suppressive fire, which gives you AoE. My understanding of guns is that trying to hit more than one person at once is basically just going 'pray and spray'  which in my mind fits more with suppressive fire than being able to just accurately rattle off a half a dozen to a dozen bullets at two different targets in what is effectively one second.

Grenades are a niche weapon, requiring a niche skill, that have a lot of draw backs in terms of risk of friendly fire, damage to mission crucial material, detectability, reputation etc.

I'm also not sure I'd agree that -3 AP is equivalent to 1DV. But that would be intuitive rather than maths based.

You mentioned earlier that it's a win even if the targets avoid damage by using up their actions. That is kind of the point of grenades though. It's cripple / kill them or flush them out of cover and make them vulnerable. So that fits the purpose of the tool for me.

Mind you, I am now thinking I might not want to switch to 5e. One of my co-players has a bit of a grenade fetish a little like Jayne in Firefly and I've already felt the wrath of a 4e flash bang because of it. If I got a 5e HE in the chops  thanks to him (and somehow managed to not be chunky salsa), he'd definitely be seeing whether he could catch a bullet in his teeth.

[jamesfirecat]

Maybe, although Mages can do a lot more than just AOE and unless the mechanics for mana based spells have changed they're a lot more subtle. I'll have to see the rules, but I don't expect to see HE grenades as anything but last ditch weapons in my games so I'm not worried.

The thing is that given the dynamics of the Shadowrunner world, somebody in the party needs to be able to AOE, otherwise you're going to be able to get overwhelmed by people of only reasonable skill but large numbers too easily.

People who shoot machine guns/automatic rifles can no longer AOE because they can only shoot one person for every two simple/one complex action they get (no more two long bursts on the same turn, and no more using a full/extended burst to tag four nearby people with individual short bursts) which means that the AOE needs to be brought by either mages or people who shoot non bullet firing guns.

The mage doubtlessly has a lot more utility options than a random guy who is "just good enough" with a grenade launcher.... but to me it feels silly/weird when "geek the mage" has become "geek the guy with the grenade launcher" because the mage is no longer the damage dealing combat monster /glass cannon of the team.

Presumably you can still use a FA weapon to do suppressive fire, which gives you AoE. My understanding of guns is that trying to hit more than one person at once is basically just going 'pray and spray'  which in my mind fits more with suppressive fire than being able to just accurately rattle off a half a dozen to a dozen bullets at two different targets in what is effectively one second.

Grenades are a niche weapon, requiring a niche skill, that have a lot of draw backs in terms of risk of friendly fire, damage to mission crucial material, detectability, reputation etc.

I'm also not sure I'd agree that -3 AP is equivalent to 1DV. But that would be intuitive rather than maths based.

You mentioned earlier that it's a win even if the targets avoid damage by using up their actions. That is kind of the point of grenades though. It's cripple / kill them or flush them out of cover and make them vulnerable. So that fits the purpose of the tool for me.

Mind you, I am now thinking I might not want to switch to 5e. One of my co-players has a bit of a grenade fetish a little like Jayne in Firefly and I've already felt the wrath of a 4e flash bang because of it. If I got a 5e HE in the chops  thanks to him (and somehow managed to not be chunky salsa), he'd definitely be seeing whether he could catch a bullet in his teeth.

The problem with 5E web linked grenades is that no you don't cripple/flush them out, you don't do something like suppressive fire to pin them down then roll grenades at them while they're having a hard time getting away, it's just you roll three 5/6's on your attack roll, and then someone no matter how fast/mobile they are gets to eat 16P-2AP.

I feel that the "three dice to hit" thing of time delayed grenades is balanced because it gives than entire turn to be "dead men shooting" or get out of the blast range, or even throw it back at you which if they pull off you will have no chance at all to return the favor back to them.

I feel that the "explodes once they reach your target" of motion sensor grenades is balanced because you have to actually hit the person you are aiming at and they are at a reasonable but not overly large dodge penalty (equivalent to a short burst)

I don't feel the "so long as you're not hacked you can do both" of wireless grenades is balanced, because it lets someone dish out huge amounts of damage for only minor investment in how good they are at a skill.

 

[Bull]

Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs...   And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.

[jamesfirecat]

Just remember, what works for the players, works for the NPCs...   And if they get a reputation for throwing grenades, enemies will be much less likely to deal fairly with them.

"

Okay, and if grenades are meant to be "unbalanced" like this on purpose in the sense that they are a strong weapon that you should only be able to bring into play in certain situations and that your runners need to plan things out tactically (which is hardly a new thing in Shadowrun, 90% of the battle is selecting the terrain only 10% is actual lead/spell slinging) so that they can be in a situation where they can use grenades, or at least one where grenades can not be used against them, then I withdraw my quibble. 

I just wanted to make sure that I was reading the rules correctly and that if you're in those situations where they can be used effectively (people trying to break through a bottle neck for example) they were meant to be easy to use and dangerously powerful.

[Michael Chandra]

I don't have the rules but aiming at the runners their feet seems wrong, since it tries to avoid the opposed test. You should just keep them separated for now.

I would, however, like an official ruling on this one day for running Missions.

[Crunch]

I want to see the rules on wireless grenades actually. I'm not sure the abbreviated summary here is telling the whole story.

[Bull]

There is no dodge test for Grenades.  It's a straight up single threshold test.  WHether you're throwing at ground or at a runner, the test is the same.  It's a THrowing + Agility [Physical] (3) test.

There are no rules for catching or throwing a Grenade back yet.  Those are traditionally in the first Combat expansion, and I have no reason to think they won;t be this time around.

Grenades only stack a little.  You get +1/2 DV for the second grenade only.  You get no extra DV for grenades past the second.  You get -1 AP per grenade past the first.

So three HE Grenades hit the same location and go off on the same action (16P, -2 AP base damage).  They will do a combined damage of 24P with a -4 AP.

Grenades are dangerous.  Also remember that they can be set off by fun things like fireballs.

Bull

[tequila]

Funny, I was going to be picking up fireball anyways.  Now I have even more reason to do so.