[Kiirnodel]

Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware.

BIOWARE GRADES
Like cyberware, bioware is available in varying quality and
availability. The most common off-the-shelf bioware is type O
and is roughly matched to the patient’s size and metatype. By
its nature, neural bioware—aka cultured bioware—must be
matched to the patient’s physiology, particularly his brain and
nervous system. Likewise, higher-quality bioware (alpha, beta) is
tailored more closely to individual biological systems and protein
matched to existing tissues. The highest quality bioware (delta)
is vat-grown from a cellular matrix containing the individual patient’s
own DNA, custom-made just for them. Rules for bioware
grades (alpha-, beta- and delta-grades) appear on p. 313, SR4A,
and Installing/Repairing Cyberware and Bioware, p. 126.

Seems pretty straightforward, basic bioware refers to Standard, non-cultured bioware. The Type O gives the bonus to the bioware that is type O, basic bioware.

[All4BigGuns]

Alright, that's it. If you start calling me a bad GM for screwing over my own character concept that I still want to play one day, you can get out of my topic. If you only contribute that kind of negative attitude, I don't need your opinion on my questions.

Did I say you were a bad GM? No. An otherwise good GM can screw their players over with a bad decision.

[Michael Chandra]

I have no interest in semantics. Please keep your hostile attitude out of my topics.

- - -

Kiirnodel: Thanks! So off-the-shelf is stated to be non-Cultured in Augmentation itself! That supports that off-the-rack basic means Standard non-Cultured bioware when it comes to the Type-O System quality.

[Prodigy]

There is no interpretation RAW. That being said, cultured is still "basic" Bioware. Nothing says I can't get delta-grade Thermo-sense organs. IMO, the quality should cover all Bioware. I will agree with A4BG that a 30 BP quality should be worth the cost. However, if a GM rules otherwise, well then that's his/her interpretation.

[Michael Chandra]

I don't think you can't get deltaware Cultured but the off-the-rack part of Type O System seems to indicate Augmentation's RAW considers it to only apply to non-Cultured, as Kiirnodel quoted. The idea there being that not only should it be Standard grade, it should also be off-the-rack Type O, which Cultured isn't.

Also, Type O System applying to just Basic bioware can still be worth it to a full-bioware character who's looking forward to Orthoskin, Muscle Toner, Muscle Augmentation, Bone Density Augmentation, Platelet Factories, Symbiotes and more enhancements. It costs a lot but really pays off in the end, saving you an easy million or more. So from a player perspective, I think it's definitely worth the BP in the end, assuming your character concept works with it. If the player is informed in advance it won't work on Cultured and still makes the call (such as my own character concept) it pays off quite nicely in the end. The money saved on all that Basic Bioware can rack up to more than Deltaware Synaptic Boosters Rating 3, still cutting your costs in half if you get those as well.

[Thrass]

there is a problem with the system:
given the 4 facts:
1) generic bioware is mass produced and thus has a normal/basic/standard/generic rating and is called type-O
2) bioware can be tailored to better fit into the host system (and delta grade is vat-grown from the patient's DNA)
3) neural bioware must be matched to the host, so in essence it is already tailored to the host and should never be available in a normal/basic/standard/generic rating or as second hand
4) all bioware comes in grades as does cyberware


problem is point 3 and 4:
there shouldn't ever be a type-O version of something that is individually tailored for every patient, when there would be no type-O option, then there wouldn't be any interpretation problem with the quality

[Kiirnodel]

"Basic Bioware" is a very clearly labeled type of Bioware in Augmentation. It might be hard to tell if you read through the chapter quickly, but take a look at the combined chart in the back of the book. Page 171/172 has a chart with prices and everything for All of the bioware in both Augmentation and the Core book. It lists 4 very clear and distinct kinds of Bioware, separated by their names, labelling each kind. The four kinds are: Biosculpting, Cosmetic Bioware, Basic Bioware, and Cultured Bioware.

The Positive Quality very clearly states that it allows the character to implant "off the rack, basic bioware" as though it were delta-grade. Only Standard Grade, Basic Bioware is ever "off the rack" as I showed in my previous post. Everything else (cultured or higher grade) is custom tailored and grown for the individuals it is for.

[Michael Chandra]

Of course with 3+4, you can read it as that it can still be tailored loosely or with a lot of effort, time and resources spent in making it as compatible as possible, so there's still grades for Cultured. But the off-the-rack part is likely not just fluff but actually indicating off-the-shell type-o mass-production. Also, Augmentation repeatedly stresses Cultured as being different from Basic

But yeah, it's phrased a bit odd and it ain't the first, nor the last, time some phrase could have been WAY better. I hope that with SR5, where they no longer have the pre-CGL past in their way, they can afford to properly-errata any future vague language without it becoming a discussion not just about RAI but also RAW. Take Immunity to Normal Weapons. Take Astral Hazing. Take Softweave. Hell, take Gearhead Rating 2 with its two different BP costs. All those things are a pain in the ass and they never released errata for it, I hope they can focus all their resources on their own SR5 now and make sure errata are available for any vague language.

[Prodigy]

You are never going to please rules-lawyers. No matter how well written.

The sky is blue. Rule.

"Well, does it mean sky blue or royal blue? I am gonna say royal because that's my interpretation."

Go with what you and your GM agree with.

[Kiirnodel]

Prodigy, this isn't interpretation, it's taking direct quotes (not even snippets mind you, the whole of the text) and putting them side by side to show direct correlation.

page 61 of Augmentation (quote above) clearly says that the Type O bioware is "the most common off-the-shelf bioware". It goes on to describe two more kinds of bioware that need to be custom tailored to their recipients, Cultured and higher quality bioware (alpha, beta).

There are also several charts and headings that label certain kinds of bioware as "basic bioware", page 171-172 being the complete listing of all bioware between augmentation and the core rules.

The quality lets you treat "off the shelf, basic bioware" as delta grade for the purpose of essence loss. Show me a single statement that says either a) cultured bioware is basic bioware, or b) cultured bioware can be bought "off the shelf".

Note, that non-alpha, beta, delta ware is referred to as "standard" grade ware (also quoted above), so no, it isn't referring to the grade of the ware. Not to mention it would be completely pointless to buy alpha- or beta-ware grade bioware to use with the Positive Quality anyway...

[Michael Chandra]

Of course they could have stated it far more clear. I'm still assuming you can get Cultured at higher quality.

[Kiirnodel]

Yes, all bioware (basic, cultured, etc) is available at each of the four grades of ware (standard, alpha, beta, or delta)

[Prodigy]

I'm not disagreeing with you kiir, I just said there is no RAW about it. Maybe RAI, but no RAW. What does "off the shelf" mean RAW? Even the flavor text on page 55 supports your argument and I would probably rule your way too. I am just pointing out that it is still up to interpretation.

[Michael Chandra]

Here's hoping Type O System makes it into 5e with a better wording.

[JoeNapalm]

Prodigy, this isn't interpretation, it's taking direct quotes (not even snippets mind you, the whole of the text) and putting them side by side to show direct correlation.

page 61 of Augmentation (quote above) clearly says that the Type O bioware is "the most common off-the-shelf bioware". It goes on to describe two more kinds of bioware that need to be custom tailored to their recipients, Cultured and higher quality bioware (alpha, beta).

There are also several charts and headings that label certain kinds of bioware as "basic bioware", page 171-172 being the complete listing of all bioware between augmentation and the core rules.

The quality lets you treat "off the shelf, basic bioware" as delta grade for the purpose of essence loss. Show me a single statement that says either a) cultured bioware is basic bioware, or b) cultured bioware can be bought "off the shelf".

Note, that non-alpha, beta, delta ware is referred to as "standard" grade ware (also quoted above), so no, it isn't referring to the grade of the ware. Not to mention it would be completely pointless to buy alpha- or beta-ware grade bioware to use with the Positive Quality anyway...

You make WAY too much sense.

How did you get in here?

 


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist