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How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?

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Nath

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« Reply #135 on: <04-20-13/1731:19> »
Okaaaaayyyyyy....  lets looks at the "Dumber of the 2 dragons that street legends gave us stats for: Hestabey: with a logic of 19 and an inituition of 20 only makes her 3 times smarter then the SMARTEST human. EVER. So you know your plan? That great one I just linked up top? She sees through that. Last decade. Before lunch. And she thought it was pretty typical of a moronic Human... very unimaginative. And has thrown out at least 2 dozen counter options. Before settling on the half dozen or so that she randomly picks through to counter this silly, unimaginative plan. Before breakfast.
True... but only to a certain extent. A dragon may be smarter than any single human, but so can be a group of humans. The Pentagon has several hundred or thousand times more brainpower than the smartest human ever (it's just that it's not focused on winning wars, but also on things like spending cuts, election yearS and advancing their own careers). Dragons, on the other hand, rather work alone (though I guess they could use those Force 20+ spirits for the purpose of councelling).

So yes, Hetaby is rolling four times more dice than your average RPG players, and is thus likely to achieve four times more hits. But planning has never been stated to be an Opposed Test (and, it was, what the modifiers are for the attacker and defender).

More important, awareness of a risk never meant it could be avoided. During WW2, the German knew something like the Invasion of Normandy was a possibility. But they simply did not have enough resources to keep ready for an option they (wrongly) thought was unlikely to happen, while trying to slow down the Soviets in the east.

Sure, a great dragon is likely to expect someone will try to kill him in the future. That list starts with Verjigorm, followed by a handful of immortal elves, the other dragons, and the megacorporations, governements and private persons with competing interests, plus Alamos 20,000 and similar anti-Awakened groups. Mathematically, one great dragons cannot have enough agents to watch over all the other great dragons' own agents, let alone all its other enemies.
It's one thing to spy on one specific space program. It's another to spy on every space launch by every space power and their clients for over fifty years, and determine which ones want such weapon only to kill you and which ones have a broader strategic motivation, and among them those who may turned that weapon against you at a later point.

Detect Enemy is a good spell, but it doesn't say how prepared people are, and thus cannot discriminate closet dragon haters and fields ops in the final stages of preparation for an assassination attempt. That's one problem of being a public figure.

And even if it did allocate enough resources in the good place, there's no such thing as a perfect plan, offensive or defensive. Part of the answer for great dragons would be to prepare for certain type of attacks, instead of trying to detect actual threats early. It works even better from a gaming point of view since this can be solved mostly with lots of dice.

It's somewhat telling that Street Legends is basically an errata to the great dragons stats provided in the rulebook (Body 25, Agility 10, Reaction 11, Strength 40, Charisma 13, Intuition 13, Logic 13, Willpower 13, Edge 6, Conjuring 8, Sorcery 12, even when accounting the possibility given to the gamemaster to adjust attributes "up to three points in either direction"). Street Legends didn't give stats, it gave a statement.

And did your reading also tell you why Bio weapons are a serious 'No-no' for all but the mentally retarded? Bio-logical weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated.
Well, I didn't know Franklin Roosevelt was mentally retarded.

Biological warfare programs were dropped because it had the bad habit of infecting soldiers regardless of their uniform, along with civilians.

Research in biological weapons rather avoided fast-mutating virus like Influenza because of the risk they could mutate and become less potent during the weapon production process. I don't think anyone try to make a weapon of one the hundreds of different virus involved in "common cold" as none is even remotely deadly enough to start with. Anthrax is a bacteria, which mutate a lot slower than virus do.

YEEAAAA.... where to begin on this one.... first off, the most powerful militaries out there in the SR universe are actually in the corporation's hands. the FEW superpowers that remain still have sizable military might, but not enough to wave a middle finger at the combined force of even two or three megas... let alone 5 (SK, NEONET, MITs, Renraku, Wuxing all have dragon allies... and those are just the ones we know about. AZT has several dragons, but they are the only Corp I actually consider wacky enough to remotely try something)
Not even close to. In California, Ares Macrotechnology sent two regiments. There were two divisions of rogue Japanese troops that stayed with Saito. Aztechnology entire special force is a single battalion of 400 soldiers. It has fairly more line troops (the largest of the megacorporation), but those actually are the reserve units of the Aztlan national army. In a given battlefield, even a middle-of-pack national military could take on a big corporation.

In a war, the corporation would get the benefit of a much larger "strategic depth" as the Business Recognition Accords give them the opportunity to have troops, logistic lines, intelligence collection activities and command centers within the border of a large number of countries. However, a corporation would never take the full benefit of this since the Corporate Court specifically forbade megacorporations to go at war or try to overthrow governments, with the threat of an Omega Order. Corporation would be able to shrug off a military aggression, they would equally unable to cause significant damage to a country armed forces. The Corporate Court rules the world with money, not military might.

The truly sad thing is that versus a Country, the Corp Court wouldn't issue an Omega Order.
Actually, the Corporate Court wouldn't, for the reason given above, and couldn't legally issue an Omega Order against a country (or a private person for that matter). It's a sentence that can only be called upon member corporations (meaning here membership at large, A, AA and AAA, not the election of a candidate to the court that goes with AAA status).

Mirikon

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« Reply #136 on: <04-20-13/1739:46> »
I got it. Get a powerful adept pornomancer to distract the great with enthralling performance and then crash in to the dragon with a zeppelin from Rigger 4. Bam, 900-ish p damage and dead dragon.

Or get that pornomancer to get another great to help you. Dragons are probably a lot like diamonds, they can only be cut by other dragons.
Two problems, DeathStrobe. 1) You're forgetting the dragon's anchored spells and bound spirits, which would protect it from getting caught in this kind of thing. 2) A great dragon, without any gear, ware, or magic, has a dice pool to match any pornomancer in social skills, simply because they have a Charisma of 20+, as well as social skills. Add in the likelihood of them using some of the same tricks as the pornomancer, and that's like a con man running a shell game trying to trick the person who INVENTED the shell game.

Also, great dragons don't like eachother much, but they have some very specific rules in their culture, keeping them from fighting eachother. Part of the reason Lofwyr was able to mobilize everyone to take on Alamais is because he snubbed Lofwyr in his position as Loremaster. That's also the reason Hestaby got in trouble, because she did things that went against dragon culture.
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Angelone

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« Reply #137 on: <04-20-13/1828:31> »
@Nath, I'd like to point out an Omega Order was called upon Art Darthwanker. Other than that I agree with your assessment of corps vs nations.
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Mithlas

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« Reply #138 on: <04-20-13/1906:35> »
Biological weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated.
I think that this is something easily misunderstood. My last 3 books have been nonfiction centering on biowarfare, and if you have any curiosity at all about the subject I'd recommend you read Richard Preston's Demon in the Freezer about smallpox.

There's also an explanation of various types of diseases in The Great Influenza which I'll summarize here: The more complex the organism, the more mechanisms it has to protect against mutation. Bacteria and multicellular organisms have DNA with overlapping "spell checking" on the genetic code. There are also DNA viruses such as smallpox or hepatitus that replicate through an RNA intermediary and are relatively stable (if deadly in the case of smallpox, especially the strain bioengineered by the Soviet Union and suspected now to be in the hands of North Korea). Below that are RNA viruses like the coronavirus and influenza, which mutate so quickly some virologists consider them a quasi-species instead of a specific species. Influenza in particular mutates so quickly and extensively that it is referred to as a "mutant swarm" instead of a simple infection, and when an infected cell bursts 99% of the millions of particles are so mutated that they cannot even survive.

Organizations that create bioweapons tend to either 1) go nihilistic and want everything to die, their own are expendable too, or 2) target a non-vaccinated populace while their own elite are vaccinated, relying on hope that quarantine and their own elite to keep the target population from infecting the primary populace of the creating group. That there are many very reliable means of stamping out an epidemic before it can really get started are discussed in Demon in the Freezer in regards to a smallpox breakout in Germany, but it still makes the point that bioweapons are an investment that is not infallible.

Bull

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« Reply #139 on: <04-20-13/1922:35> »
OK kids.  Just a reminder:

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Reaver and rfv855, please refrain from posting in this thread any further since you cannot be polite to each other.  Also, this is a warning for each of you, with further possible action pending moderator review.

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Nath

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« Reply #140 on: <04-20-13/1939:40> »
@Nath, I'd like to point out an Omega Order was called upon Art Darthwanker.
Sorry, I still can't get used to the idea :(

The Corporate Court is an arbitrage court. Per Corporate Shadowfiles, Corporate Download and Corporate Guide. It only deals with AA and AAA megacorporations (and the state dealing with them). It rules over corporations that adhere to it. These corporations accept its rulings in exchange of the extraterritorial benefits granted by the signatory nations of the Business Recognition Accords. Mandates, including the unlimited mandate that is an Omega Order, are issued against corporations.

Art Dankwalther is not a corporation. He's a citizen of a state (guess UCAS, but it's not actually stated anywhere). He never adhered to the Corporate Court charter. Nor did he get a lawyer, due process and all that. The Corporate Court obviously has the power to carry on an extra-judicial assassination, but they should never acknowledge it, let alone put a name on the process.

System Failure nonetheless mentions an Omega Order "on Dankwalther and his few remaining holdings." I would personally retcon that with the Corporate covering its ass with a ruling that would say something like "Despite the lack of documentation, it has been proven that M. Art Dankwalther played an effective operational role in the management of corporations A, B and C. The control exerted by M. Art Dankwalther over these corporations establish a de facto conglomerate, bound by corporation A registration with the Corporate Court. As such, assets of corporation B and C, and all assets used by M. Art Dankwalther to conduct business with these corporations, are legitimate targets under Omega Order issued against corporation A. The Corporate Court thus authorize a Thor shot to be fired against M. Art Dankwalther's cellphone and battery charger, used to communicate with corporation B head offices on March 12th, 2064, at 18:48 UT, and currently located in ..."

But, anyway, yes, you're right, as far as canon is concerned, an Omega Order has been issued against Art Dankwalther.

Mirikon

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« Reply #141 on: <04-20-13/2011:38> »
Art Dankwalther was a man who declared war on an A corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AA corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AAA corp, and WAS IN THE PROCESS OF WINNING! Sounds like that has a lot to do with the megas to me.
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I_V_Saur

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« Reply #142 on: <04-20-13/2035:56> »
Why do the Greats even bother with Metahumanity? Why did Dunkelzhan kill himself to buy us time? Why are Drakes valuable?

Because we have potential to surpass the Greats.

In the Sixth World, we've managed tech in decades good enough to garner interest from beings like Lowfyr. We breed fast enough, produce enough prodigies, and just plain think so far out of the ballpark that, as stated in Core, we can surprise the Greats. It takes work, it'll rarely work twice, rarely work once in the first place, and you likely won't survive. Still, it's doable, by Metahumans, because 1 - we are hard to predict, 2 - we're the craziest bastards on our planet, and 3 - we're too damn stubborn to give up.

Do the Greats know exactly where Technomancers came from? No.

Do they know how to feed Ghouls and such with synthetic materials? Nope, but Big D trusted us to pull that shit off, when even his race was clueless.

For the moment, we're fodder. For the moment, they can crush us. Eventually, Harlequin believes, (And D probably agreed) that we can beat the hell out of the goddamn Horrors, things that could make Hestaby cry with minimal effort.

Eventually, the Greats won't be exerting power over us as a matter of dominance, but survival. A way to avoid being slain for their bodies. Many will die anyways, their arrogance finishing them off.

Sixth or Seventh Edition will probably include a bit on how open season has been declared on all non-corp Dragons.

RHat

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« Reply #143 on: <04-20-13/2050:29> »
That would be too early for that sort of thing, Saur.  Also, nothing stops dragons from making use of tech themselves...
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FastJack

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« Reply #144 on: <04-20-13/2052:34> »
OK kids.  Just a reminder:

Quote from: Terms of Service
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When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect. Confront an opinion, rather than a person; personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated. The posting of messages or materials that are obscene, violent, abusive, discriminatory or threatening in nature, or designed to harass or intimidate another person are not tolerated.

Reaver and rfv855, please refrain from posting in this thread any further since you cannot be polite to each other.  Also, this is a warning for each of you, with further possible action pending moderator review.

Everyone else, keep the Terms of Service in mind, play nice, and be respectful of each other.

Agreed. We'll let this stand as an informal warning for now. I'll be watching out to make sure you two are playing nice in public. (If you want to continue your insults back and forth through PMs, that's fine with me.)

DamienHollow

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« Reply #145 on: <04-20-13/2154:45> »
question, a few of the greats tend to be hyper aggressive. reading the fluff about the zeppelin in rigger 4, why couldn't they just take any zeppelin and turn it Hindenburg? Dragon shows up, sees a fun looking target, goes for the bait, and BOOM! and yes I know rigger 4 is a joke but it's a viable idea.

Mirikon

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« Reply #146 on: <04-20-13/2235:27> »
Other than Alamais and his followers terrorizing GeMiTo the last few months, dragons don't actually do stuff like that. Not because they can't, but because they're also very intelligent creatures, and they understand that getting their long term goals is usually better served by no blowing up every random vehicle that crosses their path. Now, if someone in the zeppelin shot at a dragon, or was involved in the dragon telesma trade, then that's another story.
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« Reply #147 on: <04-21-13/0003:22> »
Other than Alamais and his followers terrorizing GeMiTo the last few months, dragons don't actually do stuff like that. Not because they can't, but because they're also very intelligent creatures, and they understand that getting their long term goals is usually better served by no blowing up every random vehicle that crosses their path. Now, if someone in the zeppelin shot at a dragon, or was involved in the dragon telesma trade, then that's another story.

I actually got the impression that GeMiTo had a purpose other than 'Im hungry'  It pulled away that think illusion that said 'Dragons are people too' and said 'hey look, we are the alpha predator and your just sheep'... with the desired outcome to create tension between dragons and humans and weaken other Dragon's ties to modern society, which in turn undercuts some of their strengths etc etc.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #148 on: <04-21-13/0743:20> »
No, GeMiTo was a deliberate smack in the face to Lofwyr from his brother, forcing the Loremaster into a conclusive battle on Alamais's terms. Unfortunately for Alamais, that ended about as well for him as it did for Nachtmeister.
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« Reply #149 on: <04-21-13/0756:11> »
Now explain to me how any of those plans can be pulled off without the Greats finding out about it long before it can be excecuted.

Because, really, orbital weapon platforms can easily be built without anyone noticing. </sarcasm>
Meh. Orbital weapons are guns.
Take a gun apart and assemble it in space and it'll be a lot harder for anyone to detect, ridiculous mental stats or otherwise.
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