Author Topic: Gun Heaven 2 is released! Fifty--that's right, fifty!--new guns!  (Read 14385 times)

Sichr

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Well, its not trolling. Just expression of disapointement that is growing inside for some time. Reprints missing Erratta. Some major changes for character creation allowed for HeroLabs, well never made part of rulebooks (1000Karmagen). And sources maintaining material and technological Status-Quo.
I still love this game, and I understand that mistakes happen, well I also work for company that is able to produce 40000 pieces of merchandise per month with less than 5% waste, and when such waste is produced, we are able to remove it from market before it reaches customer most times. Or repaired ASAP with apology. Still, itsindustry, not the publishing business, so maybe QA rules are different a bit.

Critias

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I imagine the bigger difference you're dealing with is scale.  Scale, and professionalism.

You and the guys you work with work there.  The vast majority of people involved with making Shadowrun products for CGL?  This is a side job for us.  We're professors, or Amish cab drivers, or college students, or programmers, or who knows what else.  We don't get to work on Shadowrun forty hours a week.  We squeeze Shadowrun in around the edges of our real lives, between being husbands and fathers and teachers. 

Also, we don't have a single, unified, mental image.  Shadowrun's got a lot of canon, and a look at any gaming forum, anywhere, will show you just how many different ways people can interpret that canon.  I mean, hell, how many threads here or on Dumpshock have flamed out over someone interpreting a line of text one way, and someone else interpreting that same line of text another?  Disagreements happen.  There's no Bible for this that we've got secret access to.  We're all different people, working part time, trying to hammer out the details of a world that we've all got our own ideas about.

But, most importantly?  We don't really work together when we do work.  I live in Texas, Bull lives in Ohio, our nominal boss, Jason Hardy, lives in Chicago (I think?).  Hell, Patrick and I live in the same state, but that state is Texas, so we're actually about four hundred miles away from each other.  We all see each other maybe two or three times a year, at GenCon or Origins or something.  So in addition to our SR writing not being what most of us do full time, in addition to all of us having our own ideas of what the game and the game world look like (versus what they SHOULD look like), all of us do so in our own little bubbles, sharing ideas as much as we can (via text);  we have an email group and a bunch of other stuff, sure, but we're not all sitting in cubicles next to each other, having face-to-face meetings once a week to talk things over.

Now -- here's the important part -- I don't say all this to make excuses for us.  I'm explaining part of why I think the mistakes get made, and how they can slip through the process, but please believe me, I'm not making excuses.  I'm not saying those mistakes are okay.  I'm saying how I believe the problems arise, but I'm not saying these problems are okay.  Believe me, no one is more aware than we are that fans pay money for these books.  We have all paid money for books.  We're all gamers.  We all love Shadowrun.  We all bought Shadowrun books before we started writing for them, and we all still buy Shadowrun books now (I just placed an order at my FLGS this afternoon, in fact).  We know that we're making a product people pay money for, and we know mistakes get through, and no one kicks us -- no one -- as hard as we kick ourselves. 

I joked with CanRay over on DS when he first smacked his forehead, realizing he'd forgotten something for Shadowrun 2050, and as he scrambled to try and write some errata for it.  "Now you're in the club," I said.  No one is as hard on us as we are, on ourselves.  Writing his own e-book that sold pretty well on drivethrurpg.com didn't make him a veteran, was my implication.  Fucking up and trying to fix it?  That's when I felt like an industry professional.  Not when I got lucky and did well, but when I screwed up and did everything I could to fix it.  My name is on the books I write, and I take that very seriously.

And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

But then you closed your post like you did.  You said no one from CGL cares what you're saying (despite the fact that you know full well this forum, and plenty of other gaming forums, are crawling with us).  You said as long as we get our money we don't care (which is even funnier when one considers how very little most of us get paid).  You said none of us want to correct the flaws or glitches, or innovate (when several of us have gone out of our way to write up our own errata, to frantically try and correct mistakes that have made it through).  You put words in our mouths, and said that we called our fans nerds instead of ever listening to them.  And, frankly, fuck that. 

When you say things about everyone at CGL, you're talking about a whole lot of people.  People from all over the world, from all sorts of economic backgrounds, with all different levels of education and training and professionalism and experience.  And when you lump us all together at all that's bad enough, but when you lump us all together in order to say some pretty despicable stuff, like you did?  Stuff that says we're (somehow) all in this just to take money from our fans that we all secretly hate, and that none of us really care about the books we write, and how we don't listen at all to what our fans have to say?  That's pretty shitty, and fantastically wrong.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.
« Last Edit: (06:57:35/07-25-12) by Critias »

PeterSmith

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If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.
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Absolute power is kinda neat.

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Sichr

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Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)

Well, it seems Ive been wrong, exaggeratedly bitter and there ARE people in CGL who care. I only hope that it is majority of those people who are sweating blood for Shadowrun, and that it also stands for people on the top of the food chain. To such people I apologize.

BTW any news on this?
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5245.msg83091#msg83091
Single link to comment would be more than enought. Because, you know, you dont have to be Horizon to know that some things are good for PR.

...
And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

From your post this is about the only thing I would like to ague, since the rest seem to be true and there is no further need to beat the dead horse.
We have outer space stations. Orbital bank. Orbital corporate court. LAV main battletanks. WWWifi. Genetic modifications. We have SciFi right now.
For that cyberpunk part...well, we no more have deckers, but thats the way it is and it reflects advancement of reality. Well I recall Schismatrix. Neuromancer. System Shock. Terminator. and sooo many other books, games, movies and shows. Most of those includes technological tools and elements coparable at least, but oftenly more advanced. But you are right that it may be a question of individual taste, and such questions are rarely answered the way that makes everyone happy.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.

On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

PeterSmith

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On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Sichr, if you took my post as calling you ignorant, don't. If I thought you were ignorant, I would say it to your face. Or as face-to-face as a message board can be. With the three points you mentioned (reprints without errata rolled in, undocumented changes to HL, status quo) two of them bother me too. I know CGL is very able to roll errata into reprints, three of my four versions of Tactical Operations have errata rolled in. The changes that are showing up in Hero Labs? They should be documented and posted here so that everybody at the table is on the same page.

Arguing about status quo, on the other hand, is like arguing about story direction. You've swerved well into the world of opinion. In the case of status quo, it's the worst thing to get to. To have an unchanging story means you're not developing anything new. Significant change will never happen, which will lead to stagnation, which will end up with a dead game system.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

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All4BigGuns

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Well, I dont think anyone from CGL would really care for this call. As far as they get their money for what they are oferring, there is no need for inovations (or correcting flaws and glitches a few NERDS had pointed out)

Well, it seems Ive been wrong, exaggeratedly bitter and there ARE people in CGL who care. I only hope that it is majority of those people who are sweating blood for Shadowrun, and that it also stands for people on the top of the food chain. To such people I apologize.

BTW any news on this?
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5245.msg83091#msg83091
Single link to comment would be more than enought. Because, you know, you dont have to be Horizon to know that some things are good for PR.

...
And that's what makes a comment like yours suck so bad, Sichr.  Not the body of the post, no.  I was in this very thread with everyone else, just chatting, bullshitting, sharing my (very critical) thoughts on the game, same as everyone else.  And then I read your post, and I thought there were some cool ideas there.  The reason I think most of those things (the higher-tech stuff) aren't in the game, to be honest?  Because they make it too sci-fi, and not cyberpunk enough.  They move the tech level up a little too far, maybe, so lots of us have shied away from it. 

From your post this is about the only thing I would like to ague, since the rest seem to be true and there is no further need to beat the dead horse.
We have outer space stations. Orbital bank. Orbital corporate court. LAV main battletanks. WWWifi. Genetic modifications. We have SciFi right now.
For that cyberpunk part...well, we no more have deckers, but thats the way it is and it reflects advancement of reality. Well I recall Schismatrix. Neuromancer. System Shock. Terminator. and sooo many other books, games, movies and shows. Most of those includes technological tools and elements coparable at least, but oftenly more advanced. But you are right that it may be a question of individual taste, and such questions are rarely answered the way that makes everyone happy.

If you want to make the Shadowrun writers stop coming to a forum, and make us hate the fans, and make us want to tune out all criticism, and make us stop listening to fan opinions?  Comments like that, my friend, are the perfect way to do it.

There's a lot of truth in this. BattleTech lost a helluva line developer because he got tired of years of listening to the same ignorant shit from the same ignorant fans.

On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Well, after your post, he clarified that he wasn't calling =you= ignorant, but he is right. A lot of times when someone goes from 'random Joe on the street' to 'customer' their I.Q. seems to drop like 50 points--especially noticeable when someone steps up to a fast-food order counter.
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Sichr

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On the other side, I dont see that calling complaining customer "Ignorant" is a step to the right direction...I may had used inaproriate language or arguments, but that doesnt render that post completely irrelevant.

Sichr, if you took my post as calling you ignorant, don't. If I thought you were ignorant, I would say it to your face. Or as face-to-face as a message board can be. With the three points you mentioned (reprints without errata rolled in, undocumented changes to HL, status quo) two of them bother me too. I know CGL is very able to roll errata into reprints, three of my four versions of Tactical Operations have errata rolled in. The changes that are showing up in Hero Labs? They should be documented and posted here so that everybody at the table is on the same page.

Arguing about status quo, on the other hand, is like arguing about story direction. You've swerved well into the world of opinion. In the case of status quo, it's the worst thing to get to. To have an unchanging story means you're not developing anything new. Significant change will never happen, which will lead to stagnation, which will end up with a dead game system.

OK. I just wanted to accent that there are other things in my post we can talk about, not just the last paragraph.
About Status quo, I didnt mean it as a Story status quo. Story is moving forward pretty good and every new book has something new to offer, creating marvelously rich setting for story driven GMs and Players. I was talking about technological status quo...the fact that in the world of weapons shadowrun is surprisingly similar to current state of technology...and the SR world is 50 years in the future, where even spirits and Artifical inteligencies of some sort are helping designers and engineers to create new tools of destruction and killing. Not just design developement, as we can see it in books, is pretty traditional and conservative. So, IMO it would be nice to step out of box with that and instead of inventing Battle riffles try to invent something really new. As Ive seen in other threads, some people are considering DV/AP values of most weapons quite ridiculosly underpowered. Well, I dont have problem with that...its part of the game and balance. On the other side, there is the fact that when you look at all those guns, they are pretty similar...Id say cloned almost. They offer only little of anything like competitive advantage on the market...in fact the only way how weapon producers can win the customer is to get  weapons loaded truck in fromt of his house  and bring him in so he can buy the riffle or a gun. Because otherwise it is all he same:
"I want a handgun."
"Take this"
"Some parameters"
 "OK. it has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"OK and what about this one?"
"Oh. That has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"And that one?"
"Oh. That has between about 16 rounds in a clip. Light recoil. Moderate stopping power. Unable to pierce personal armor."
"Anything special?"
"Oh yes. All those gun have smartgun. Interrested?"

...

PeterSmith

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I was talking about technological status quo...the fact that in the world of weapons shadowrun is surprisingly similar to current state of technology...and the SR world is 50 years in the future...

Ehh...I wouldn't put too much stock in the fifty year mark. Next year marks fifty years since the US Air Force adopted the M-16. The US Army is moving to the M-4, which is a variant on the M-16.

On the other side, there is the fact that when you look at all those guns, they are pretty similar...Id say cloned almost. They offer only little of anything like competitive advantage on the market...in fact the only way how weapon producers can win the customer is to get  weapons loaded truck in fromt of his house  and bring him in so he can buy the riffle or a gun. Because otherwise it is all he same...

Take a look at the Light Pistols in Shadowrun. They're almost all 4P B damage. Heavy Pistols move to 5P B-1. Each class of weapon has the same range bands. It really comes down to brand loyalty in Shadowrun, which is something that fits with the game.
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All4BigGuns

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I will admit that I think that the heavy weapons need a serious damage boost. As-is, there's no reason to go for a light, medium or heavy machine gun over an assault or battle rifle.
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Tsuzua

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There's actually some noticeable differences between guns in the same category.  The differences that matter are innate recoil compensation (usually fluffed as chamber systems) that stack with all other forms of recoil compensation, useful modifications or special abilities that you can't normally add such as the foregrip of the MP9 or the -0/-1 recoil of the Fubuki, and expensive/difficult modifications built-in such as Ceramic/Plasteel Components 3 included in the Elan. 

PeterSmith

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There's actually some noticeable differences between guns in the same category.

It depends on how much your character cares about them.

If I'm a Sam or a PhysAd then probably care about the details of the specific handguns. If I'm a mage, I might ask the guy I bought it from to put a note on there to remind me which way to point at the enemy.
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

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CanRay

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I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!
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All4BigGuns

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I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!

Agreed. We need more images of more of the weapons and armors and vehicles.
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PeterSmith

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I will admit that I think that the heavy weapons need a serious damage boost. As-is, there's no reason to go for a light, medium or heavy machine gun over an assault or battle rifle.

I can think of a reason: lack of access.

Player: "I want to pick up a Ultimax 150."
Armorer: "Sorry man, I don't have any of those. I have an Ultimax MMG ready to go right now, or I can get you an 150 if you don't mind waiting a month."
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

PeterSmith

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I care about how they look, which the Gun Haven Heaven books are great for!

...

What, I like my Gear Porn!

Who doesn't?
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015