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How do you get rid of Stealth RFID tags?

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Thrass

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« Reply #45 on: <02-03-12/0605:26> »
RFID in our world dosn't need integrated power... it comes from the reader... with technology in 2060+ there should be no problem to harvest (google energy harvesting I think) enough energy from all sorts of radio frequencies for rfid tags to work even when not in the vicinity of a reading device

RFID tags can be printed... that does not only mean they are ultra cheap... the are flat like ink... they also can be inside virtualy anything... (that dosn't block radio) any stupid plastic, veramic, polymer or other modern compound material can have the RFID chips deep inside.

your micor drone with micro plasma torches would need to Burn trhough all of these materials to find and destroy them...

(and you don't want them to torch something in the fuel tank do you?)

EMP would be my choice of action.

Also RFID chips by design (in our world) only answer to pings... so as long as it isn't pinged (with the right code) it dosn't give away it's location....
But when it does it does...

So steal the car scan till they ping it and then you can find it.

OR since this is no handshaking protocol (and if it were you could just send a false passcode and it would answer garbage but you could still find it)

Steal the car jam the signal (or probably better use a faraday cage) so it dosn't receive and answer... liste to every freaking stealth ping out there (should be many since many cars get stolen all the time)
and replay (method is called replay attack) them in the vicinity of the (left) signal... it should respond and be locatable
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beowulf_of_wa

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« Reply #46 on: <02-03-12/1214:28> »
guess i should have included above that my post was intended for theft and keeping the vehicle (relatively undamaged). the big risk is that you might steal a vehicle that has electronics you want to keep, at which point the best method is to have someone you "trust" tear it down to component parts and scan/emp til it's all clear.

trying to "burn out and remove" all the tags would leave you with a toy that looks like swiss cheese.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #47 on: <02-03-12/1217:49> »
If you have the code to ping or connect to these RFID tags could you possibly reprogram them around the car instead of having to get rid of them? :P who knows maybe you'll have to track the car when someone steals it from you!!!
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

Greenknight001

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« Reply #48 on: <02-03-12/1319:56> »
A micro drone using a Non-linear Junction Detector and ultra-wideband radar would be able to pinpoint any and all RFID tags in a vehicle pretty quickly... the NLJD has a range of 1 or 2 meters, so all it would just have to do is run over the surface of most vehicles once or twice to "ping" out any RFID tags that are there (a bus or RV might take a little longer).

Once it located the tags the UWBR would let it pinpoint the location of each tag, and being a micro-drone it should be able to crawl into most spaces in the vehicle to get at them.  Admittedly the drone might have to drill a few small holes in the vehicle to get to deeply embedded tags, but that's why epoxy was invented.

Unless the vehicle was literally made out of RFID tags, there wouldn't be a "swiss-cheese" effect.

PS- on the trip home after stealing the vehicle, you keep your jammer set as low as possible (just enough to keep the tag's range down to a couple of meters)... and don't park next to any cop cars.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #49 on: <02-03-12/1321:39> »
Again, ALL RFID tags, by their very nature, need to be inexpensive.  At a certain expense, it is cheaper to install a commlink.  I'm pretty sure that at commlink pricing, that is an added feature, along with security monitoring, which the end user pays for and subscribes.  If this is something that all (registered) cars have, then the cost needs to be negligible (or included in the registration fees).  City wide locating of vehicles would be done via the transponder tracking.  A stealth system would likely require a hand held wand type device to confirm a vehicle ID.  So, lets say a cop rolls up on a suspicious car.  The transponder says one thing, but he decides to check further.  He pulls up the RFID code from the database, plugs it into his scanner, then waves it over the car looking for the appropriate ping back.  Since he doesn't get a ping back, he starts checking the stolen vehicle list and running those codes.  That is enough of a time sink that a cop isn't going to run those codes if he gets a matching RFID signal with the transponder.  Our current day equivalent is a cop checking the plates and then checking the VIN on the dash.  If the VIN matches the tags, then he's going to accept it as legit.  If it is missing the VIN or it doesn't match the tags, that's when he'll push harder.

The trick then is to go to the junk yards and find wrecked cars with the same make and model.  Grab the transponder and RFID code.  Get those registered legit and when you steal a car, plant those numbers in the car.  If you want to feel good about yourself, you can say that you're being Data Green and recycling codes that would otherwise get lost into the junkyards forever.


Thrass

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« Reply #50 on: <02-03-12/1338:17> »
If you have the code to ping or connect to these RFID tags could you possibly reprogram them around the car instead of having to get rid of them? :P who knows maybe you'll have to track the car when someone steals it from you!!!

Again no idea how it will be in 2070 but today I think these RFIDs would be hardwired not programmed or programmable... but you should easily be able to produce tags with your desired IDs and stick 'em to the car.
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Zilfer

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« Reply #51 on: <02-03-12/1618:31> »
If you have the code to ping or connect to these RFID tags could you possibly reprogram them around the car instead of having to get rid of them? :P who knows maybe you'll have to track the car when someone steals it from you!!!

Again no idea how it will be in 2070 but today I think these RFIDs would be hardwired not programmed or programmable... but you should easily be able to produce tags with your desired IDs and stick 'em to the car.

Gotcha, I had heard from my IT instructor some months ago that the RFID tags in a creditcard could be copied from up to 10 feet away and even through your cloths, to use it for criminal gain. :P I haven't researched it too much but I can believe if it gives off a signal there's got to be at least a way to copy it. xD
Having access to Ares Technology isn't so bad, being in a room that's connected to the 'trix with holographic display throughout the whole room isn't bad either. Food, drinks whenever you want it. Over all not bad, but being unable to leave and with a Female Dragon? No Thanks! ~The Captive Man

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #52 on: <02-03-12/1720:56> »
Those are just the cards with the RFID chips.  They are designed to be convenient, not secure.  By necessity, the radio code/frequency to access them is public because all the merchants need them for transactions. 

Thrass

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« Reply #53 on: <02-03-12/1921:02> »
Gotcha, I had heard from my IT instructor some months ago that the RFID tags in a creditcard could be copied from up to 10 feet away and even through your cloths, to use it for criminal gain. :P I haven't researched it too much but I can believe if it gives off a signal there's got to be at least a way to copy it. xD

That's no news...
they proved that RFID chips (in passports I think it was back then) could be copied over such ranges... (you just need hardware with a high signal output and a good signal amplification that does a good job filtering out background noise) but this hardware oporates outside of legal specs (as if it would matter to a runner)

if the distance to the RFID chip doubles you need to push 9 times the "electrical" power through the Air to make it "reach" the chip which is the easy part... then you need a sensor that is good enough to pickup the signal from the RFID chip...
What I don't know atm is if the response is stronger if the chip was fed with more energy... would need some googling to find out...


they also proved that relay attacks are possible...
you A and your ally B are trying to do credit card fraud... so you use a programmable device that looks like a credit card or you just take something that looks like a credit card and hold it near the credit card reader whilst holding you device to the reader too

then your device captures the activation signal from the credit card reader sends it through a wireless connection to your ally B

B has a device in his bag that he holds near the pocket of a random guy who has a credit card in his pocket and sends the relayed signal to the credit card the credit card responds since it is a legit signal Bs device captures the response sends it to your device and your device answers the credit card reader...

you only need to put enough distance between A and B to not be noticed but not too much distance so the response time is still inside the accepted parameters of the credit card reader
(wireless signals take time to be transferred)
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #54 on: <02-03-12/2130:32> »
And yet, somebody thought a wireless matrix would be a good idea.

Kontact

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« Reply #55 on: <02-06-12/0144:00> »
Where does this signal rating 0 and 3 m range come from?

SR4a p222. 

You can't stop the signal.  ;)

Things like smartgun wifi signals are rating zero.

CanRay

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« Reply #56 on: <02-06-12/0300:19> »
You can't stop the signal.  ;)
Sure you can.  All it takes is a sword.  :P
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Noonan

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« Reply #57 on: <02-16-12/1251:50> »
So the spell Pulse will take out the standard RFID tags but will leave any stealth RFID tags on the vehicle operational?

Timberbeast

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« Reply #58 on: <02-23-12/2100:27> »
So the spell Pulse will take out the standard RFID tags but will leave any stealth RFID tags on the vehicle operational?

From the description of the spell it seems that it works in a similar fashion to the tag eraser (p. 330 SR4A), so I would say that it could erase stealth tags, as well as sensor tags or any other sort of RFID tag. Security tags however are hardened, so the pulse spell would not work against them.

JustADude

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« Reply #59 on: <02-23-12/2208:58> »
So the spell Pulse will take out the standard RFID tags but will leave any stealth RFID tags on the vehicle operational?

From the description of the spell it seems that it works in a similar fashion to the tag eraser (p. 330 SR4A), so I would say that it could erase stealth tags, as well as sensor tags or any other sort of RFID tag. Security tags however are hardened, so the pulse spell would not work against them.

Fortunately, I don't think there are Stealth Security tags.
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