[ZeldaBravo]

I'd also argue that Mages can get by without a starting vehicle since it's possible to start out with a character that can run (or fly!) at 30 MPH or faster. 

Vehicles are not just for moving around fast. They are for moving around while you sit on your butt.

[Strange]

I'd also argue that Mages can get by without a starting vehicle since it's possible to start out with a character that can run (or fly!) at 30 MPH or faster. 

Vehicles are not just for moving around fast. They are for moving around while you sit on your butt.

Or for sleeping in, if you have a street lifestyle!

[Medicineman]

or storing some Equip.
You don't want to run around in Downtown Seattle with a Shotgun or an Ingram Smart X or wearing a Tactical Vest with
Ammo, Grenades and Silencer-Pistol

HkaHey
Medicinemna

[Reaver]

To bring us back to the OP's question....

Honestly, you can build a mage in many, many ways and they are all correct. The question is "are they optimal?"

And that in its self is a loaded question that can only be answered by talking to your other players and GM.

There seems to be a... shall we say.... view(?) on these forums that unless you are rolling 10 bajillion dice, you failed making your character..... its only ONE of the reasons I generally avoid the character creation parts of the forum - it gives me a headache.

I suggest you talk to your GM and see if he can give you an idea of the dice pools you will be opposing. Or just look in the NPC section and compare your pools to the NPCs for an idea of what the typical enemy throws (assuming your GM uses the typical DP and doesn't create demi-gods for gangers).


Also... its a role-playing game!! Have fun!! Don't try to 'win'..... cause really, you can't. There is always some new jerk to beat up, job that needs doing, mook to shoot, and johnson that screws you the next week. Trying to 'win the game' tends to lead to a Dragon's dinner table.... AS dinner!

[Whiskeyjack]

I think the MOAR DICE view comes from the fact that you really can't know what your opposition will be like even if your GM gives you rough guidelines, and it's generally better to take on the unknown with more dice than less.

I don't think I play this game to "win," since there's no final boss cue credits scene, but I also don't play it to fail runs. I want to do big crazy shit. I want to show the shadows that I am an emperor among criminals, not a peasant. Mechanical optimization helps me embody that play style. I also have a hard time suspending disbelief that a fixer would set up someone who's of middling competence to take on big jobs for the 10 most powerful corporations in the world. The fixer's rep is on the line too if you prove to be insufficiently competent.

If I wanted to be kind of a crappy nobody getting by by the skin of my teeth and having to count every bullet because I might not be able to afford to buy a reload, I wouldn't play Shadowrun (because nothing about that appeals to me in Shadowrun). Instead, I'd play Dark Heresy 1e. And I love Dark Heresy 1e, I just go to it for a very different play experience and power level than I do
Shadowrun.

Your idea of fun may vary!

[Glyph]

Character creation, especially priority, usually involves hard choices, because you have limited resources, and something needs to be Priority: E.  It is easy to make a weak character by losing your focus, but it is also easy to make a powerful character just by making a few logical choices.  There is room for both kinds of characters in the Shadowrun sandbox - but some helpful advice can make the character that a player envisions match its game stats.

[SmilinIrish]

I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E.  None of the those I have made or played started with a focus.  Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E.  Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear).  I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise.  Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills. 

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense.  I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells.  Different people prioritize different things.  I like lots of high level skills.  My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character. 

If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way.  Missions is a grinder.  Home games usually are about character and story.  Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E.  Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil. 

[Glyph]

To compare them to mundanes, a mage can be like the weapon specialist (lots of skills) or like the street samurai (less skills but higher dice pools for them, with some assistance from external power-ups).

[ikarinokami]

I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E.  None of the those I have made or played started with a focus.  Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E.  Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear).  I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise.  Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills. 

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense.  I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells.  Different people prioritize different things.  I like lots of high level skills.  My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character. 

If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way.  Missions is a grinder.  Home games usually are about character and story.  Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E.  Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.

A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite

[Senko]

I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E.  None of the those I have made or played started with a focus.  Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E.  Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear).  I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise.  Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills. 

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense.  I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells.  Different people prioritize different things.  I like lots of high level skills.  My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character. 

If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way.  Missions is a grinder.  Home games usually are about character and story.  Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E.  Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.

Same pretty much every mage I've made has had resources E, sure its tight but I can take starting with less cash a lot easier than less magic/skills/attributes, metatype is a close second. On the other hand those 3 do tend to shift around a bit depending on the char most mages have magic A (higher starting magic, free skills and spells all add up) but I have had the other 2 at A depending on character creation. Its a balancing act.

[SmilinIrish]

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE...

A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite

Yeah, I get it that most think skills A is bad.  Maybe for missions it is where everyone sticks to their specialty and you have a face with dice pools in the 20's who doesn't let anybody talk.  For our home game we don't have a dedicated face, and everyone is expected to need some social skills at some point. Even our Combat focused troll has 10 dice in negotiation (diplomacy). I wanted a detective Mage with 6's in both sorcery and conjuring groups, good dice pools in Con, negotiation, intimidation (interrogation), sneak, tracking (it's how we do tailing) perception, assessing, and some dice for computer (matrix search).

But in regard to my munchkin comment, I was referring to the priority choice of AACEE and dumping physical stats. 

[Whiskeyjack]

A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite

It's still probably a trap.

[zarzak]

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE...

A Skills for a mage is never munchkin, it's in fact the exact opposite

Yeah, I get it that most think skills A is bad.  Maybe for missions it is where everyone sticks to their specialty and you have a face with dice pools in the 20's who doesn't let anybody talk.  For our home game we don't have a dedicated face, and everyone is expected to need some social skills at some point. Even our Combat focused troll has 10 dice in negotiation (diplomacy). I wanted a detective Mage with 6's in both sorcery and conjuring groups, good dice pools in Con, negotiation, intimidation (interrogation), sneak, tracking (it's how we do tailing) perception, assessing, and some dice for computer (matrix search).

But in regard to my munchkin comment, I was referring to the priority choice of AACEE and dumping physical stats.

The sorcery and conjuring groups are generally bad though ... you generally don't want all three skills in both groups.  skills B or C coupled with Magic A (and maybe a few karma) would actually pretty much cover all of your wants on the skill checklist

[Whiskeyjack]

Yeah, specs in a couple of the actual good skills are better than the groups (or just not wasting points on the bad skills), and even if you can raise MAG with SAP from higher Meta priority, those extra spells are gold.

[Marcus]

I have a hard time making a mage character without resources E.  None of the those I have made or played started with a focus.  Current character is Sum to 10 Magic A, Skills A, Attributes C, Meta E, Res E.  Background is that he is old (aged quality, low low phys stats), down on his luck (low lifestyle, takes the bus, no foci, minimal surveillance gear).  I wanted a full load of magic skills (6 in sorcery group, 6's with specs in all three conjuring skills, 6 in Astral Combat, perception, assensing, plus good dicepools for sneak, interrogation, negotiation (diplomacy), tracking (for tailing), Con (fast talk) and disguise.  Loads of dice pool 10 and 12 knowledge skills. 

So you might say I'm munchkining with AACEE, but the backstory makes sense.  I play him as old and frail, but wise and subtle with spells.  Different people prioritize different things.  I like lots of high level skills.  My dump stats (all four) make sense for this character. 

If I were playing missions, I probably wouldn't build this way.  Missions is a grinder.  Home games usually are about character and story.  Probably go Magic A, Skills B, Attr C, Res D, Meta E.  Dumb Cha and Log instead of Body and Agil.

When will people get over this "munchkin" negativity concept . Game theory was developed over a century ago, it eventually developed to the concept of taking the least bad action to help all the players as a whole, aka the Minimum Maximum or Min/Max. It was then and it is now about helping everyone playing as a whole. Feeling guilt cause ya did some math and developed a background you like is just silly. You don't need justify anything, the stormwind fallacy alive and well in so many, is just blows me away. Everyone should play the game to have fun, for some it means taking the time to math out a great build and having a great story, for others it is different. It doesn't matter the order of creation, all that matters is ya have fun playing the game.