NEWS

Space elevator

  • 32 Replies
  • 6705 Views

Sphinx

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 879
« Reply #15 on: <08-27-15/1110:20> »
The space chapter in SR4 Hazard Pay (p.113-144) is an excellent read. You should also check out the survey of space assets in SR5 Run & Gun (p.166-167). And there's a good Wikipedia article on space elevators (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator) that's worth reading.

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #16 on: <08-27-15/1220:16> »
There're about ten manned space stations around Earth in 2076, plus a Moonbase or two, and a Mars base. There's an Ares station aroud Mercury-ish that studies the Sun and is manned, and there're a few othe rthings lfitting around out in space as well. There's a whole big bunch of info about this in Hazard Pay. Is cool. :)

Nath

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 587
« Reply #17 on: <08-27-15/1621:03> »
There're about ten manned space stations around Earth in 2076, plus a Moonbase or two, and a Mars base. There's an Ares station aroud Mercury-ish that studies the Sun and is manned, and there're a few othe rthings lfitting around out in space as well. There's a whole big bunch of info about this in Hazard Pay. Is cool. :)
That would imply about sixty space stations were abandoned in two years.
Quote
Hazard Pay, page 123-124
Currently, there are approximately sixty-five LEO stations and facilities in orbit. [...] Currently, there are only four manned stations in GEO, but two more are planned within the next ten years. [...] All five Lagrange points currently have stations, but until 2070, only three were operational. The other two have been recently purchased and are undergoing refit and refurbishing.

TheWayfinder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 78
« Reply #18 on: <08-27-15/1724:24> »
There're about ten manned space stations around Earth in 2076, plus a Moonbase or two, and a Mars base. There's an Ares station aroud Mercury-ish that studies the Sun and is manned, and there're a few othe rthings lfitting around out in space as well. There's a whole big bunch of info about this in Hazard Pay. Is cool. :)

If that's the case, then I'd suspect that nuclear rockets are in use.  They'd have to be just to get to Mercury-ish and back again, because Mercury is so far away.  I'll have to look those books up and read up on them, because I'm curious as to just what it is that Ares is hoping to get out of doing manned research so close to the Sun.  Must be something around up there that has their attention. 

There is another point that I'm not sure about, and it comes down to Space Sovereignty.  We have something already on the books known as the Space Treaty, which basically says that we won't put nuclear weapons in orbit and that the Moon and other celestial bodies aren't really owned by any one nation, among other things.  However, since the changes made in the 21st Century, that treaty may be null-and-void, or ignored altogether.  If there are only a couple of moon bases, I wonder if that means that someone, be they a nation or a corp, declares some ownership of the moon and all the rights to explore and utilize it?  Or, at the least, the small portions of it that the bases occupy?  Even if nothing were to happen in our real world but we put moon bases up there, the more we do that the more that territoriality is going to become an issue.  This is especially going to be the case if we start exploring and posting facilities on asteroids like Ceres. 

When that happens, lots of things could happen, but one thing that could happen is that hostilities break out, and that means a space combat scenario. 

I and a lot of others around my circles have pondered what this would look like.  Space combat is markedly different than planetary combat.  I don't know if there are armed spacecraft in the Shadowrun universe, but if I had to guess they probably don't look anything like what we might ordinarily imagine.  And, as far as I understand, I don't know how well Magic works in space.  I know that you don't want to go Astral in space, but do spells work in space?  Because that's the only way I can see anyone being able to conceal a spacecraft, spacestation, or any other manned space facility.  Without the ability to somehow cast an illusion that obscures infrared sensors and radar, detecting spacecraft will be stupidly easy, because they give off so much heat.  Spacecraft do not get rid of heat very well, because there's no medium to help get rid of the heat out there than it does on Earth.  Half of those panels you see on the ISS are not solar panels; they're radiators, and without them, the crews would roast. 

Basically, from what I know of the Shadowrun universe, there would be only two ideal weapons to employ in space:  Lasers and railguns.  Lasers have a whole lot more range in space than a railgun, but they suffer from the Inverse Square rule, that the further out you shoot, the less powerful the beam will be at the business end.  So while X spacecraft armed with a laser could shoot from a million miles out, the damage he inflicts on Y spacecraft will be negligible, but increases as the ships get closer in.  The X ship would punch a few holes (which is why both spacecraft will decompress and their crews will be in spacesuits prior to combat), but may not damage it enough to neutralize the Y ship.  And if the Y ship is armed with a railgun that only shoots BB sized rounds in one shot-gun like blast, he has to get in real close, within a thousand miles, of the X ship.  But, the Y ship has to only hit the X ship once.  If only one BB moving at several times the speed of sound hits the X ship squarely, or even just at a small portion, the sheer kinetic force will obliterate it. 


Lighthouse

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 424
« Reply #19 on: <08-27-15/1756:38> »
No manasphere in space so no magic and no mages/spirits/adepts as they will die.
"Fish gotta swim You know what I'm sayin." Omar

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2233
« Reply #20 on: <08-27-15/1953:10> »
Spells in space is BAD. WHen you cast, you open a gate to the astral inside yourself, channel that energy through you, with your brain giving it form, and release it. Doing so in SPACE, which is a Mana Warp 12, essentially results in your soul being sucked out of your body. Heap Bad Mojo.

There're about ten manned space stations around Earth in 2076, plus a Moonbase or two, and a Mars base. There's an Ares station aroud Mercury-ish that studies the Sun and is manned, and there're a few othe rthings lfitting around out in space as well. There's a whole big bunch of info about this in Hazard Pay. Is cool. :)
That would imply about sixty space stations were abandoned in two years.
Quote
Hazard Pay, page 123-124
Currently, there are approximately sixty-five LEO stations and facilities in orbit. [...] Currently, there are only four manned stations in GEO, but two more are planned within the next ten years. [...] All five Lagrange points currently have stations, but until 2070, only three were operational. The other two have been recently purchased and are undergoing refit and refurbishing.

Holy cats! I was thinking that saying 12 was too many as I haven't read it in a while. 65? Yikes! I undersold it!

Regardless, Hazard is the definitive SpaceBook just now. Space in Shadowrun's a big deal, but most 'runners will never fiddle with it.

CitizenJoe

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
« Reply #21 on: <08-27-15/2135:00> »
Re: space lasers. Lasers have some sort of focal array, typically this is some sort of concentrating mirror.  You spread x amount of joules across your wide focusing mirror which translates into some percentage of those joules concentrated on a small spot like frying ants with a magnifying glass.  You can use the same mirror to paint and scan targets at a further distance with less power.  Here's the issue with space lasers.  Assuming similar tech levels, you can see much further than you can shoot.  It takes less energy concentrated on a point on the enemy mirror to distort it than it takes to penetrate armor.  So the laser systems need shutters.  You can disable an enemy laser from far greater distance than you can destroy his ship.  So it is a careful chess game of not exposing your weapons until the right time.  But the first to draw has advantage.

Rail guns don't have the accuracy needed at anything outside a hundred kilometers, and probably ineffectual at mobile things past 10 km.  Keep in mind that things keep going in space, but the distances we are talking about are so long that any mobility will steer you to safety.

TheWayfinder

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 78
« Reply #22 on: <08-28-15/0008:21> »
Re: space lasers. Lasers have some sort of focal array, typically this is some sort of concentrating mirror.  You spread x amount of joules across your wide focusing mirror which translates into some percentage of those joules concentrated on a small spot like frying ants with a magnifying glass.  You can use the same mirror to paint and scan targets at a further distance with less power.  Here's the issue with space lasers.  Assuming similar tech levels, you can see much further than you can shoot.  It takes less energy concentrated on a point on the enemy mirror to distort it than it takes to penetrate armor.  So the laser systems need shutters.  You can disable an enemy laser from far greater distance than you can destroy his ship.  So it is a careful chess game of not exposing your weapons until the right time.  But the first to draw has advantage.

Rail guns don't have the accuracy needed at anything outside a hundred kilometers, and probably ineffectual at mobile things past 10 km.  Keep in mind that things keep going in space, but the distances we are talking about are so long that any mobility will steer you to safety.

That's all true.  As I said, a rail-gun shooting BB sized ammo at a target within a thousand miles of it can probably hit something, unless the target ship is doing some hard maneuvers, and I'm factoring in potential advances in designs for both weapon systems.  I'd imagine they could make a laser weapon system or a rail-gun system that's computer targeted, using radar and infrared to get a solution to the respective targets.  Such a combat scenario might be something like a boxing match, where one boxer is bigger than the other, and therefore has better reach.  But if the smaller boxer can weather the hits and get in close he could hit him in the ribs and the belly hard enough to do some damage. 

I helped write a script where such a fight happens, and I'd say the technology we're using is today's tech, slightly more advanced.  One scenario that I thought might negate the damage of the rail-gun would be if the other spacecraft could match speeds with the rail-gun projectiles being shot at Mach 7.  That way they might bounce harmlessly off the ship's hull instead of rupturing it.  Personally I'm of the opinion that a laser weapon is the superior one, due to its range, and that they're getting smaller and smaller every time I do some research on them. 

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #23 on: <08-31-15/0102:22> »
<deleted: Lasers!  Railguns!>
<deleted: Railguns! Lasers!>
Wow.  You're both ... basically wrong.

If you're utilizing a laser as a weapon, you want as much punch delivered as you can, for as long as you can.  If you're dealing with a long-range weapon built to deal with targets at variable distances, that means that you're needing to counter the very slight spread that comes from the lasing process, and only that, so that your 1.21 gigawatt laser is going to screw things up for hundreds of thousands of kilometers.  Because (by the point SR comes around) you can correct that to a matter of a microsecond-of-arc, the inverse-square law isn't going to apply until that microsecond-of-arc turns your 7cm-diameter laser into something considerably larger - several hundreds of thousands of kilometers down the line.  More, since it reaches those distances literally at the speed of light, you can hit them, well, pretty quickly, and it's hard to dodge if they're on anything like a predictable course.

The railgun thing requires a more chess-like way of thinking, but while matching speeds of a railgun projectile sounds great in theory, forget not that that (3- or 5- or 10-kg) projectile has a) a launch velocity (Mach 7) and b) an inherent velocity (that of the vehicle launching it).  If Gunboat A is chasing Shuttle B but can't catch up (has the same velocity) so it shoots at it, the difference in velocity between Projectile P and Shuttle B is suddenly Mach 7 on top of the velocity that is shared by Gunboat A and Shuttle B.  Shuttle B's primary defense is - ta-daa - evasion.  If they can move out of the way of the (now constant) path of Projectile P, then they're perfectly fine.  Which is where chess comes in - Gunboat A is going to fire more than just once, in such a way as to either herd Shuttle B where they want it to go (walking the fire into every path they don't want the craft to take) or else to cut off all escape routes and make at least one of those rounds hit Shuttle B.  (Because if Shuttle B could move its tonnage as fast as Gunboat A could fire, then it'd be the universe's best fighter craft, and probably using gravitational tech.)  Also because of this, it behooves the creators of the gunboat and its weapon and its projectiles to use smaller ammunition - because in space, you don't need fins, and spheres or rods or squares travel Just Fine Thank You once they're launched - and accellerate it (as necessary) to higher speeds in order to possess the same energy - a micro-machine-gun, if you will, a shotgun if you won't.  ;)
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

CitizenJoe

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
« Reply #24 on: <08-31-15/0909:13> »
Space is beyond the scope of Shadowrun.  Corporate politics surrounding new technologies is within the scope of Shadowrun.

For more info on space combat I suggest Atomic Rockets at ProjectRho.Com or Rocket punk Manifesto.  Just google it.  Rocketpunk Manifesto did a series on lasers vs missiles... suffice it to say it was comparable to the cyberlimb debates here.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #25 on: <09-01-15/0138:54> »
Hmm.  65 orbital stations, from ten-people research labs up through orbital factories and on to frickin' high-value vacation spas.  Moonbases.  A base on Mars, and probably manned expeditions to the asteroids (which, in my games, is where S-K's primary extraterrestrial thrust is going, along with ...) and to Jupiter and its moons - let's face it, since SR has fusion reactors, having one or two sitting on Ganymede creating a) oxygen and b) nuclear fuel for itself (i.e. 4 H's and 2 O's via electrolysis), and in so doing also essentially creating a cheap export that can practically move itself, rocket fuel ...

... I'd say space is very within the scope of Shadowrun.  If the players and GM care to make it so, an entire campaign might be run without ever touching down on anything larger than a moon ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Top Dog

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1219
« Reply #26 on: <09-01-15/0601:48> »
Wait, Renraku has a mass driver? How does that work? You can't put stuff into orbit with just a mass driver. Do they have stuff up there to catch it and circularize the orbit?

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #27 on: <09-01-15/0757:38> »
Y'know, rocket ships don't get caught either - and they don't usually have anything up there to 'catch them' or 'circularize their orbit'.  It's part of the math involved - and nothing says that they don't have attitude jets on the things they're throwing, y'know?
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Top Dog

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1219
« Reply #28 on: <09-01-15/0809:10> »
Y'know, rocket ships don't get caught either - and they don't usually have anything up there to 'catch them' or 'circularize their orbit'.  It's part of the math involved - and nothing says that they don't have attitude jets on the things they're throwing, y'know?
Rocket ships have, well, rockets. They have to burn those while in orbit to get a nice circular orbit - if all your acceleration happens on earth (by railgun) then the resulting orbit neccesarily intersects the earth again when it comes around (unless it doesn't come around at all). This is bad.

You could railgun a rocket up there, but it'd have to be one sturdy rocket - being literally shot into space tends to be bad for vital components (also, humans). You could also have something up in space designed to receive the cargo (rendevous with it, pick it up, then accelerate it back in a proper orbit).

CitizenJoe

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1333
« Reply #29 on: <09-01-15/0948:00> »
Escape velocity from Earth is 10.2 km/s.  That's around Mach 30+.