[runarm]

Is there some rule that states that (e) stun weapons - that being tasers, stick-n-shock, things like that - do not get to add net thits to their damage?
I know that is the case for stun grenades (since they follow the grenade rules), but I have had players mention that this is also the case with tasers, etc...
Since I can't find any mention of this in the rules or through my google searches, I figured I should ask just to make absolutely sure

R.

[ScytheKnight]

It's because they are touch attack weapons. The attacker gains a dice bonus and will also win on a tie (normally defender wins a tie), this combined with the flat -5 AP are the trade off for not dealing extra damage on net hits.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

SR5, p. 171, has a combat example that uses tasers.  While electrical weapons have a flat AP of -5, their damage is indeed increased by net hits.  A grazing hit - the opposed attack/defend test is a tie - causes an electrical attack to discharge at its base value, but a successful attack (one with net hits) will still add to the damage.  If you're deliberately going for just a touch, however, you gain additional dice, but miss on a tie; you also do only the flat damage.

[ScytheKnight]

Waaaiiit... what? OK... getting confused again here...

[runarm]

Thanks for pointing out the example on pg.171 - I had completely missed that So that clears up the ranged weapons, but not the melee ones.

Nothing in the section on Touch-only attacks on pg.187 says that the damage is flat. Neither the damage section on pg.169 or the descriptions of the melee weapons on pg.421-423 mention anything like that either.

Under Grazing Hit on pg.173, it says that on a tie you make contact, thus allowing certain attack types to do damage - shock gloves are specified here as an example.

So the way I'm reading the rules now, stun weapons work like this:
Ranged weapons: just like any other ranged weapon, add net hits to damage
Melee weapons: just like any other melee weapon, add net hits to damage - additionally on a tie you win the opposed test because you made contact and can do the weapon's base damage
Grenades: Just like any other grenade weapon, damage is base damage value only

Is that correct?

R.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Ranged and Melee weapons in this case have the same rules applied in regards to the standard attack: if the two tie, the attacker succeeds in a grazing hit, and the electrical attack is triggered at its base damage.  If the attacker succeeds, he adds his net hits to the electrical damage.

Grenades are grenades, and successes can only reduce the scatter to 0.

A melee attack, however, can be declared as a touch-only attempt.  Doing so gains you +2 dice, but additional successes (I would rule) do not increase the DV of the attack, because there's no additional force behind it.

[ScytheKnight]

Interesting... every other time I've heard electrical weapons being discussed it was ruled you never get the net hits...

[Kincaid]

I think people are conflating touch attacks and electrical weapons a little too much--there's overlap, certainly, but not 100%.  My understanding (which I think is the generally accepted interpretation) is that if you use an electrical weapon for a touch attack (shock glove, stun baton, etc.) you do not stage the DV and you win ties (see the updates touch-only attack rules on page 124 of R&G).  However, if you forgo the bonuses of a touch-only attack and make a normal attack roll (or use something like Stick-n-Shock ammo, which doesn't really lend itself to touch attacks), you can stage the DV normally.  The grazing hit rule (p. 173, SR5) specifies that the attack be touch-only, as opposed to electrical, so if you're looking to stage DV, you would not win ties.

[runarm]

Thanks Kincaid, that reference to R&G was exactly what I needed!

R.

[Tarislar]

As I understand it from several other threads it works like regular combat where you stage up damage, except for 1 case.

"Touch Only Melee"  In that case you don't get to stage up, but, get the "Touch only" bonus dice & win ties.

So basically you have a choice in melee of being more accurate or doing more damage.  But not both.

[Tarislar]

So the way I'm reading the rules now, stun weapons work like this:
Ranged weapons: just like any other ranged weapon, add net hits to damage
Melee weapons: just like any other melee weapon, add net hits to damage - additionally on a tie you win the opposed test because you made contact and can do the weapon's base damage
Grenades: Just like any other grenade weapon, damage is base damage value only

Is that correct?

Bold part seems incorrect.  See my post above.  At least I think that is how it works.
In melee you have a choice, but it needs to be declared before hand & you don't get both effects.



To clarify each result using Shock Gloves & Unarmed Combat Skill.

Melee Combat Attack Success:  Stage Up Damage by Net Hits
Melee Combat Attack Tie:  No Damage but Electrical Effect

Touch Attack Success:  +2 Dice, Base DV Damage & Elemental Effect, but, No Stage Up Hits
Touch Attack Tie:  Treat as Attack succeeds just as if it had a net hit



So, basically, use Touch Only if you are facing an equal/better opponent for the extra hit dice,  but if your facing lesser mook then go for staging up damage for a 1-Shot-KO.