[Aethelwulf1972]

quick question:  If a given corp uses a SIN verification system that checks all aspects of a SIN, what is it's actual device rating and how many dice is it rolling to verify say a rating 5 fake SIN?

[Xenon]

All aspects of a SIN?! According to the SR5 p. 368 Sin Verification Tale this would be a rating 6 verification system (which is as high as it goes! According to the Device Ratings Table on p. 234 this would equal a Bleeding Edge Billion-nuyen experimental device...!). A corporate security device is normally just device rating 3.

SR5 p. 368 Checking a fake SIN
In game terms, the gamemaster should make a Simple Device Rating x 2 Test with a threshold equal to the rating of the fake SIN (use Device Ratings, p. 234, for SIN verification system ratings). If the number of hits is under the threshold, the system reports no problem. If the threshold is reached but not exceeded, the system reports that something seems “odd” with the SIN and will recommend that the operator investigate further. Whether the operator actually does anything is up to them. If the threshold is exceeded, the system reports the SIN as false and may immediately notify the authorities. At this point, the fake SIN is considered burned.

[Aethelwulf1972]

that's the question though: what is the device rating for a corporate SIN Verification System of that scope?  is it 6 or 3?

[Novocrane]

You can't really ask, "What's the expected SIN check device rating for a corporation? Is it 6 or 3?" Yes. Even adding that it checks everything, it's a question with too many variables.

Fakes aren't really meant to stand up to extended intense scrutiny anyway, so if they're being 100% checked, getting burnt is something I'd consider 100% certain.

Try giving values 1-6 for the HTR Response Time table on p352, Core, or use the Neighbourhood rating from p220, Run Faster.With that you can make an educated guess at the average DR of any given neighbourhood, and from that you can say what their SIN checks would be like.

[Xenon]

Fluff wise a corporate SIN verification system [normally] have redundancy check on number and statistics and query for external data attached to SIN. Crunch wise it would [normally] have a device rating of 3.

If you really want to use a SIN verification system that verify every aspect of a SIN like a billion-nuyen experimental SIN verification system then it would have a device rating 6 like a billion-nuyen experimental SIN verification system.....

....but unless there is some specific reason why this corporation would use a military, black ops or even experimental SIN verification device you should probably just use a device rating of 3.


Note that a fake SIN rating 5 can be instantly burned by a SIN verification system rating 3 (but it is not very likely).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Xenon's getting a bit hyperbolic with the whole 'billion-nuyen experimental SIN verification system' thing.  Consider it instead as the level of checking that gets done.  Matched to a biometrics sampler - which could be a simple combined passcode/voiceprint/fingerprint/retinal scan, missing out only on the genetic sampler - a SIN reader's quality is (or should) really just be set by how in-depth it's being told to scan, from 'does he have a SIN' level 1 to 'let's get and compare all the info' level 6.

Honestly, Xenon, why the sudden 'billion-nuyen military / black ops / experimental SIN verification device' thing?  The only real difference between a R1 and a R6 SIN check, excluding the sampler, has pretty much always been the amount of time it takes, and what information it asks for.  A SIN check is not the same as the ultra-sophisticated maglock keeping the front door of your zero-zone lab closed - and I would honestly take those device ratings with a major grain of salt.  When you can purchase up to a device rating 6 at game start, then describe a R6 item as a 'billion-nuyen experimental device', things are skewed.  I personally would double the device rating on that table, making an in-game Rating 6 equal to that table's Device Rating 3 - security vehicles and corporate security devices.  I can see a device rated 12 being a billion-nuyen experimental device ...

[Aethelwulf1972]

that makes sense considering the fairlight caliban comlink is device rating 7

[Herr Brackhaus]

Not to mention a "billion nuyen experimental system" costing only 600¥ is quite a steal.

[living]

core rule book page 234:
Device type: Bleeding Edge  device rating: 6  examples: Billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft
Device type: Smart  device rating: 3 examples: Security vehicles, alphaware, corporate security devices

cor rule book page 368:
"In game terms, the gamemaster should make a Simple Device Rating x 2 Test with a threshold equal to the rating of the fake SIN (use Device Ratings, p. 234, for SIN verification system ratings). "

The rules are pretty clear.

[Herr Brackhaus]

The guidelines are quite clear. Those are examples, and to my mind there's a rather vast difference between a Rating 6 maglock and a billion nuyen experimental device or a spacecraft.

I think it's fair to say that while a Rating 6 maglock is a high-tech device, it is far from experimental level technology, given its low cost and availability.

I agree that the guidelines for handling SIN verification are clear; the issue as I see it is that a supposedly bleeding edge device is both commonly available and highly inexpensive, which makes the guidelines non-sensical for any entity with even a modest physical security budget.

[Tarislar]

I'm with Xenon, Rating-3 makes sense, that is 6 Dice to check the SIN.
Per the CRB, quality Fake SIN's are "Hard for the man to spot".

Tossing 12 Dice at something all the time means they will catch even a SIN-5 fairly often.

I also like Rating-3 since it matches up to the best you can stick in a hand held wand sensor.
Not that its actually a "sensor", but I think of it as a solid baseline for what you are going to see at the entrance to a Corp facility.

A Rating-6 SIN check is, IMHO, not your typical entry point check, its the background check the NSA runs you through when the President is thinking about appointing you to a cabinet position.  IE, they go through your life with a fine tooth comb &/or an orifice probe.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, everyone's going to run it differently.  But the real difference isn't on the front end - the 'scanner' - it's on the back end, the 'verifier' between the wand and the SIN database.  The question comes as 'how early are you going to stop asking questions?'

Quality Fake SINs are R5-6 as well; yes, a 12-dice toss is going to blow a R5 occasionally (and an R6 Fake SIN rarely), and I agree that a R3 is going to be pretty common on the 'welcome to work', but part of the look-see is going to depend on what you're claiming to be.  I personally think that if you claim to be security or an executive, the system is going to kick it up a notch, because they want to be sure you really ARE security - or the VP of Operations.  But each table can do that different, sure.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

The guidelines are quite clear. Those are examples, and to my mind there's a rather vast difference between a Rating 6 maglock and a billion nuyen experimental device or a spacecraft.

I think it's fair to say that while a Rating 6 maglock is a high-tech device, it is far from experimental level technology, given its low cost and availability.

I agree that the guidelines for handling SIN verification are clear; the issue as I see it is that a supposedly bleeding edge device is both commonly available and highly inexpensive, which makes the guidelines non-sensical for any entity with even a modest physical security budget.

It seems to me you are getting Device Rating & Equipment Rating confused with the added Commlink Rating thrown in. Commlinks are specially designed with a firewall to make them more secure otherwise it'd be all decker/technomancer all day. Regular Equipment still has a Device Rating separate from their Equipment Rating. Even Cyberdecks have a Device Rating separate from what can be used for Firewall. The only difference between Standard grade Reaction Enhancers 3 or Delta grade Reaction Enhancers 1 is the grade, so while the RE 3 only have a Device Rating of 2 the Delta Grade RE 1 have a Device Rating of 5.

Make sense??? Equipment Rating does not equal Device Rating EXCEPT for Commlinks.

[Senko]

I think I'd come at it from the other end the wyrm ourouboros. That is whether you get an R3 or an R6 has nothing to do with who your claiming to be but what your trying to get. Consider the following examples.

Example 1
I'm in a lone star uniform, driving a lone star car (fake) with lone star ID and I show up at a corporate sub office and say "Hello folks we received a call that there'd been a problem here, mind of we take a quick look around?" They're probably only to go run a standard check since I'm in official uniform and just want to have a look round the office (as part of our plan to gain access to the computer intranet via their relatively unsecured computers). Yes we're security but we only want access to a low security building to check there's really no problem and since they're not hiding anything they'd have no reason to really check us over, they may  not even have an R3 scanner.

Example 2
Same uniform but now we're showing up at a high security facility and requesting access to restricted floors for some reason (I can't think of a valid one without more setting details). In this case however we are trying to enter an area that is high security normally and want to gain access to a restricted section of that building on top of it. Here they're going to run us through the full range of checks do our ID's match, are we in the system as having approved access, maybe a call to lone star "We have a 5'6" tall, red haired, yellow eyed foxgirl shifter trying to enter is she one of your staff" sends picture, compares biometrics etc etc.

In both cases we're showing up and claiming to be security, A VIP doing a spot check or what have you but how thoroughly your checked will depend on what you want not what you are. CEO daimon Knight nipping down to the 7-11 for a bottle of milk might raise eyebrows but no one's going to check he's really him as long as he pays on the other hand when he wants to visit a secret research facility they'll either do a full security check or be fired for not doing a full security check regardless of who's there.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Well, that's how you can play it in the game, sure.  But if you claim to be the VP of Operations and walk into my store, you can be goddamn sure that either someone I know whom I know knows the VP of Operations is going to be right next to you saying, 'Yes, this is Bobby the VP of Ops', or else you aren't coming past the front counter.  IMO, your SIN can say whatever you like; most of them are going to say 'Junebug Schlub, of no special importance'.  But when it's internal to somewhere that has serious security - as compared to just 'we gonna check your SIN at the airport so's you don't blow up our airplane, ya?', you can be sure that BOTH their IDs AND the scanners have keys that say, 'If this SIN says security / corporate echelon 4 or higher, go double-check the database to make sure this SIN is kosher'.  And the SIN checker gets a temporary 1-2 point upgrade.

Because people who pay attention to security already know that if you walk into a low-security trusted place and gain access to the corporate netowrk from there, that's already two lines of defense that you got past for free.