[Beta-Max]

In sr4 if you didn't have the program for the action you couldn't do it. So if you pardon the analogy to dnd, the hacker/Decker was a wizard, the TM was a sorcerer. The Decker if given time to prepare was a force..but the TM could create and ramp up programs on the fly making them way more adaptable. The Decker was still the stronger hacker..they just needed situational prep time. The TM didn't but couldn't always pull off the same level of matrix muscle. At least that's how I felt.

[Xenon]

A Decker can use a physical direct connection to a slaved device to get an initial mark on the host without fighting host ratings.

A Technomancer is forced to fight host ratings to get an initial mark on the host, but with Static Veil (and/or Cleaner) she can Try Again and Reboot (or use Edge) until she succeeds many many hours before the actual run.


Once inside the Host a decker is forced to fight Host ratings to Mark and Edit a File.

Once inside the Host a Technomancer is forced to fight host ratings to Mark and Edit a File, but she also have the option to use Editor (which does not require marks on the File... but have rather high Fading).


A decker can only Mark, Snoop and Trace about 6 corporate security devices and after that only stay on line for less than 15 minutes or he will risk convergence.

A Technomancer with Cleaner can potentially Mark, Snoop and Trace an unlimited amount of corporate security devices and with Static Veil (and/or Cleaner) keep Snooping and Tracing them for as long as she can stay awake.


The major difference is that you can be a hybrid Decker that only have hacking as a secondary role... that will be quite successful at Matrix Overwatch by using AR hacking from within the facility as he moves together with the rest of the strike team. Using direct connections from a physical cable between slaved device and his cyberdeck or by entering the host to be considered directly connected to all slaved devices at once.

But when it comes to grabbing files from within a host then you need to be a dedicated Decker or Technomancer (and if the file is in Archive within the host then it might not even be enough to be a dedicated Hacker). This is beyond the realm of hybrid Deckers. A decker doesn't really have any advantages here compared to a technomancer (besides that initial mark maybe, but a dedicated decker will can't really afford to waste karma on physical attributes and skills needed for breaking and entering to reach a security device that is slaved to the host anyway).

The second major difference is that Technomancer with Static Veil (and/or Cleaner) can provide surveillance for a much much longer time before being forced to Jack Out while also more efficient at tracking the movements of a Matrix Persona since they get access to the Sprite Power Cookie.

Both Deckers and Technomancers are successful hackers. They are not identical, they have slightly different options and different pros and cons, but both are viable archetypes.

[Triskavanski]

There is a few issues with what you’ve got there, mostly the assumption that Technomancer and Decker are equal in where they put points. Especially in the priority system. Karma, and they are on a bit more of an equal footing.

Deckers do not need Cha. So the points that a Technomancer would put into Cha so he could have a good attack attribute and sprites, could go to physical stats.  That allows the Decker to start spreading out into the physical world a lot easier than a Technomancer can.

Because Deckers do not take the Resonance/Magic, that puts them up a little higher up on the priority list for things like Resources. Cause like the Yugioh Abridge series “Screw the rules, I’ve got money.” A decker has more money to throw around for a deck and other forms of gear.  Gear that can give them dice bonuses anways.

A decker is also capable of having higher amounts of skills because of this as well, including additional points that would have gone to creating sprites, and registering sprites.


 

If you did nothing else other than switch priority A Resonance with priority A Resouces, and somehow spent all the money you had on a deck till you had only 6000Y left, you’d have generally  around 6 points of skills to work with (2 from each resonance skill, plus 1 for each skills specialization) and 3 more attribute points. That alone would start to bring a Decker into another sphere that the Technomancer wouldn’t usually have.

[Beta-Max]

Agreed Trisk,

The fact that a technomancer's persona is based on their ability scores and skills, as opposed to gear statistics and skill, not to mention their skill spread is a little further because of the resonance skills for sprites makes it really difficult to put them on equal footing out of the gate. I've seen the discussions about comparing the cyberdecks to the living persona and yeah you can get a living persona thats stronger than most of the cyberdecks...but with some of those layouts the skills are so crappy you're practically useless comparatively because the decker has the nice high stats AND the skill values, or cyberware or programs to boost that up.

Its really not easy to find a functional balance. You end up with lower resonance, lower skills, or lower attributes resulting in a weaker persona, or you end up leaving the technomancer abilities almost completely undeveloped.

[Darzil]

My gut feeling, having read the rules and played a decker, but not played a Technomancer, is the biggest issue is high fading and lack of a focus equivalent. With reduced fading and a 'focus', you'd be able to more readily use resonance actions to compete with a decker, without having to play like a decker. Of course, if that balances things out at chargen, you may need more toys for deckers to grow into too.

[Triskavanski]

Actually I was slightly wrong. It would be only 4 skill points, since Technomancy A starts those two skills off at 5.

But honestly, a Decker doesn't need karma to get skills. He's got money and the ability to buy skillwires without hurting his primary function.

[Xenon]

I agree that TMs cannot really use resources to make their character better which leave them kinda starved, but it also mean that Technomancer is the only (or one of the few) archetype(s) that can start the game with Resource priority E.

Also, you might not need a Resonance/Device rating of 6 (for reference; Deckers that have a Resource priority of A still only have a device rating of 3 or maybe 4).

It might also be more economical to raise Resonance/Device rating with Special Attribute points you get from Metatype priority (and increase your Resonance skills with skill points you get from Skill priority) rather than from Resonance priority.

Intuition, Logic and Willpower are used in the matrix (so deckers need them even if they don't increase matrix attributes directly), charisma is not. It might be more economical to not invest into charisma and instead infuse Attack rating when needed (and possibly invest into a few ratings of focused concentration; depending on how much you plan on using the attack attribute - a failed attack cause unresisted stun damage on a TM).

TMs also only pay 13 karma to get a Control Rig (which normally cost 1 essence and 43,000 nuyen for a decker).


Personally I think Deckers should prioritize Resources and Skills followed by Attributes while Technomancers should prioritize Skills and Attributes followed by Resonance.

[Top Dog]

Technomancers certainly aren't the only ones who can use Resources E. Magicians and Adepts (including MA's) can all start out with Resources E fine; they don't really need anything Technomancers do.
They can use resources at a higher rating to buy optional things, of course, but that proves the original point; TM's can't use resources, other archetypes can (even those that don't strictly need them).


You do make a good point about Resonance, though. I've always thought like a magician, I guess - Resonance is key. But now that I think about it, except for Sprites, what is Resonance (and, by extention, Device Rating) actually used for? Most things that would normally use Device Rating work differently for Technomancers, or don't apply at all.

That changes a lot - Technomancers normally need a decent amount of skills, so Skills C was even quite painful, but going Attribute A and Skills B (or vice versa) gives very good Matrix ratings and good skills, plus a (weak) power boost in the form of Sprites and Complex Forms. Or, go Resonance A and become the "summoner" of deckers - you can have very powerful sprites helping you, but your own hacking suffers. Choices.

[Beta-Max]

Resonance is the stat used for EVERY Resonance Action test, is the basis for the formulas for the number of complex forms and the limit to how high a level you can thread a form. The resonance/device rating is used in a defensive manner if some decker decides to throw a data spike at you.

[Top Dog]

Right, so sprites and complex forms aren't going to be good, but that we knew. It means you pick between decent sprites/complex forms or decent matrix attributes/skills. Fair tradeoff?

The data spike "armor" is annoying though. But it might allow you to get a better Firewall - which helps there twice.

[Beta-Max]

Well if you pick C priority Technomancer and D priority Human, you can still get up to 6 resonance, as long as you're okay with having only 2 Edge. Yeah you only have one complex form, but they only cost 4 karma a piece, though honestly 5 resonance is pretty good and you can have 3 edge to play with when you need to bust limits. Its not a bad layout and with the A-abilities B-Skills you can end up pretty well rounded, and might not even suck in meat-space if you end up in combat.

[Triskavanski]

One thing Xenon.

Cha is more than just Attack, Its also the number of Registered sprites you can have. Yes, I know of The errata. The errata did nothing to change that. Only add in logic when you first start off.

And I know there are things you can kinda do, and do agree that Technomancy C and Priorty D Human is probally one of the best ways to go, but even doing that can only take you so far.

[Xenon]

The resonance/device rating is used in a defensive manner if some decker decides to throw a data spike at you.

You defend against Data Spike with Intuition + Firewall (which for a Technomancer is Willpower).
You use Resonance for six actions (Erase Resonance Signature, Compile-, Register- & Decompile Sprites + Thread- & Kill Complex Forms)

But yes, Matrix damage (which is caused by for example Data Spike) is resisted with Device rating (which for a Technomancer is Resonance) + Firewall (which for a Technomancer is Willpower). Fading damage is also resisted with Resonance + Willpower (while Biofeedback is not).

limit to how high a level you can thread a form.

True, but then again, the limit is three times your Resonance rating. Even with a Resonance rating of 4 let you thread level 12(!) Complex forms. Due to fading values you are probably better off threading them at lower levels and if you need a lot of hits instead push the limit with Edge.

Personally I would try to keep the fading value down to a minimum. You can thread Cleaner at level 1, Static Veil at 3, Resonance Channel at 3, Stitches at 4, Transcendent Grid at 5 & Tattletale at 4; and still only have a fading of DV2. You can do all that with a Resonance Rating as low as 2.

Cha is more than just Attack, Its also the number of Registered sprites you can have.

You keep saying that, but it is only the number of Registered sprites you can buy for for a cost of 1 left over Karma per task in Step 7 during chargen (for reference see SR5 p. 98 Additional purchases & restrictions (table))

Yes, I know of The errata. The errata did nothing to change that. Only add in logic when you first start off.

I think that you maybe got the two mixed up...?
Charisma is used as a limit during chargen (SR5 p. 98)
Logic is used as a limit post chargen (SR5 p. 256 + errata p. 3).


SR5 p. 256 Registering a Sprite + Errata p. 3 REGISTERING SPRITE LIMIT
The Matrix doesn’t know what to make of sprites, so they show up as illegal activity. This puts a limit on the time you can keep a sprite around before GOD finds it and crashes it. You can increase your sprites’ longevity by registering them with the Matrix. This process takes a number of hours equal to the sprite’s Level; during this time, the sprite’s Overwatch Score does not increase due to time, and neither you nor the sprite can take other actions. At the end of this time, make an Opposed Registering + Resonance [Level] v. the sprite’s Level x 2. This causes Fading of 2 DV per hit (not net hit) the sprite gets, minimum 2 DV.
If you get at least one net hit, your sprite is registered with the Matrix. Its OS is erased, but can be restarted if the sprite performs an illegal action. Add your net hits on the Registering test to the number of tasks your sprite owes you. The sprite is now a registered sprite and no longer counts toward your limit of one compiled sprite at a time. Your registered sprite will stay with you as long as it still owes you at least one task. You can register a number of sprites equal to or less than your Logic attribute. Everything else is the same as for compiled sprites. Almost everything.

[Top Dog]

I did a search on Charisma in the core book, just to see if I missed something, and I came up with the same conclusion; you seem to have the two mixed up (and the CHA limit seems like an error - but it doesn't matter much).

[Triskavanski]

Huh. So it would seem. Well as long as your gm isn't some jerk who starts you off on a high stakes you have 1 hour to get to the Johnson and 5 hours to complete the job after (I've had a few) I suppose it would be alright