[DaBlueSky]

Has the Shadowrun universe come up with a way to defeat the loss of velocity in automatic guns? As some of you should know, all bolt action rifles trump assault rifles and some battle rifles by virtues of; firing full power cartridges, higher caliber rounds (obviously), but most importantly, improving bullet velocity by forcing all gas from the round through the barrel.

Automatic and semi auto guns use gas from the cartridge to slide the next round into place, therefore the bullet exiting the barrel has less velocity and by extensions, piercing power.

Any answers?

[MijRai]

Electronic cycling systems are not an impossibility; they have electronic firing mechanisms already.  I could easily see a stock with a built-in motor that operates the bolt instead of using gases or other means. 

Although, you have the order of operations a bit wrong (as far as most semi-automatic rifles go); the gas is used to operate the bolt, blowing it back either directly or with a piston, which ejects the cartridge and allows the next round to move up in the magazine to be chambered as the bolt returns and locks. 

[DaBlueSky]

Sorry, semi automatics was added as an afterthought.

Electronic cycling systems? Since you're saying it as a proposal, I'm going on the assumption that it's not canon.

[MijRai]

Like I said, it's a possibility.  At the same time, the loss in muzzle velocity in most cases is negligible for most uses, so it's probably not a huge concern. 

[DaBlueSky]

When talking about automatics, i also meant SMGs and machine pistols. Increased velocity would mean higher stopping/penetrating power against armored targets in its effective range; close.

Though you're probably right in it's negligible. It's nice to entertain the notion though.

[halflingmage]

You are looking for a level of analysis that just does not exist in the game.  RAW the mechanics don't even differentiate between different calibers and powder charges, one heavy pistol round fits all heavy pistols.  Slight difference in muzzle velocity due to the type of bolt system is not something that is going to be mechanically represented, nor will you see fluff going into this either.  Weapon differences are either about story elements, or about making weapon effectiveness roughly equal to the amount of money you spend on them.   

[DaBlueSky]

Probably. But it sure as hell helps in immersion factor. Especially when you're playing with someone who's a bigger nut about guns than yourself, and rather being condescending with their knowledge, helps makes the game more fun. Know what I mean?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Sure.  Problem is, as haflingmage has said, the game doesn't go into it.  Feel free to make shit up, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts - i.e. game stats - it doesn't matter.  Also, advice to both players and GM in your game - don't force it to matter.  Use the stuff you know as interesting in-game conversation, but don't let it interfere with the rules.

[DaBlueSky]

Well of course. Another reason I brought it up was to talk shop with a solider/fellow shadowrunner.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... in your game, I presume.  Except for the particular section of the board set up for IC RP, everything else is 'table talk', as it were - player-to-player, not character-to-character.

[DaBlueSky]

An obvious assumption, to be sure.

You're just going to point out the obvious, aren't you? All I asked was a simple question that would help the immersion factor in my game. I don't need pointers telling me how to play the game.

[Sendaz]

This would be a good one to stick over in the gear section or rules section if you wanted to brainstorm some ideas with others on differentiating the bolt vs auto systems

But again since the loss in power is fairly minor and it would take pretty much a total reworking of an automatic firing system to retain that little bit of extra oomph, the better question would be would any company really bother with adding more systems to a weapon just to recover that slight loss?

In the words of Scotty, 'The fancier the plumbing, the easier it is to plug it up'.

*checks to see what time it is*

[Tsuzua]

While technically true, I just can't see it making that much of a difference in SR or even in a gritty real life simulator. For the sake of argument, let's say the energy needed to cycle a M4 is equal to that to move the whole rifle 1 meter. That's 3.4 J (3.4 kg weight of a fully loaded m4 moved 1 meter). A 5.56mm NATO round has a muzzle energy of 1767 J. Subtracting it out, you get a muzzle velocity of 1763.6 J. A difference, yes, but a 0.2% one. There's just so many other random factors at that level that I can't see it breaking out of the noise. You likely wouldn't give a damage bonus for walking towards the target since your walking velocity increases the bullet's velocity and that's the scale we're looking at here*.

Bolt action rifles do typically use heavier loads than semi-automatic and automatic rifles. That's because the bolt action can handle higher pressures and thus are less likely to break when handling heavier loads. In addition, recoil is less of an issue as there's more time between firings.

*- Assuming a walking speed of 1 m/s (or 3.6 km/hr), the velocity will increase to 941 m/s. The total energy will then be 1771 J, an increase of 4J.

[Reaver]

Also note:

Most ammo in use in SR is caseless, so there is no brass to be expelled from the weapon, Thus no slide to be operated. This in turn saves some energy as all that has to move is the loading arm (usually by spring) for the ammo and the breech pin assembly. Now how much savings of energy that makes is limited and probably has no effect on the kinetic impact of the round.


If you are interested in caseless systems, look up the  old HK G11. It was one of the first weapons made with caseless ammo.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

As far as electronic firing in SR, Yamada Reiden and Ares Alpha are both electronic firing is memory serves.
Unless we are talking super extreme ranges, the velocity loss doesn't matter. As far as in game, use it to explain why the Remington 900 hits harder compared to most of the other rifles of similar class (sport rifles).

Edited for clarity.