[Herr Brackhaus]

Two questions, one which I've found other threads for but no real resolution, and one that's more out of curiosity than anything. I'll start with the latter, as this has direct bearing on the former.

1. Should the Punch/Clout/Blast series of spell be Direct instead of Indirect?
There are several inconsistencies for these three spells, namely:
   1.a Punch is the only Indirect combat spell with a Touch range in both Core, Street Grimoire, and Shadow Spells
   1.b Punch/Clout/Blast follows the same Drain formula as every other Direct spell in Core, Street Grimoire, and Shadow Spells
      Touch range Direct spells are F-6, LOS range Direct spells are F-3, and LOS (A) Direct Spells are F
      Most LOS range Indirect spells are F-3, while most LOS (A) range Indirect spells are F-1
   1.c Punch/Clout/Blast is a Physical spell that does Stun damage; there is currently no Direct spell with these attributes in Core, Street Grimoire, or Shadow Spells
      Death Touch/Manabolt/Manaball are Mana spells that do Physical damage
      Shatter/Powerbolt/Powerball are Physical spells that do Physical damage
      Knockout/Stunbolt/Stunball are Mana spells that do Stun damage

It just seems a little too convenient to me that Punch/Clout/Blast would fit perfectly as a Direct Physical spell that deals Stun damage, with the same drain codes as the other Direct spells. This is further compounded since Punch is the only Indirect spell in the books with a Touch range, which leads me neatly into my next question.

2. How does Direct vs Indirect Combat spells with a Touch range work?
My assumptions are as follows, using the Spellcasting sequence from page 281.

Direct:
Step 1. Choose spell: Magician chooses a Direct Combat spell, in this case Death Touch
Step 2. Choose the target: Magician must "establish a link" with the target, in this case by making a Touch-Only Attack (p187, SR5), rolling Unarmed Combat X + Agility Y + Touch-Only 2 [Physical], opposed by Reaction A + Intuition B.
Step 3. Choose spell Force: Magician now selects the Force of the spell, in this case 6
Step 4. Cast spell: Magician rolls Magic X + Spellcasting Y [Force], and since this is a Direct spell the opponent does not get to resist the spellcasting attempt, only the damage. DV is Hits on the spellcasting test.
Step 5. Determine effects: Direct spells are resisted only with Body (Physical spells) or Willpower (Mana spells), so the target of the spell in this case rolls Willpower A since Death Touch is a Mana spell, with hits reducing the DV, in this case 6
Step 6. Resist Drain: As usual.
Step 7. Determine ongoing effects. As usual.

Indirect:
Step 1. Choose spell: Magician chooses a Direct Combat spell, in this case he only has one option, namely Punch
Step 2. Choose the target: Magician must "establish a link" with the target, in this case by making a Touch-Only Attack (p187, SR5), rolling Unarmed Combat X + Agility Y + Touch-Only 2 [Physical], opposed by Reaction A + Intuition B.
Step 3. Choose spell Force: Magician now selects the Force of the spell, in this case 6
Step 4. Cast spell: Magician rolls Magic X + Spellcasting Y [Force], and since this is an indirect spell the opponent gets to resist the spellcasting attempt by rolling Reaction A + Intuition B again
Step 5. Determine effects: Indirect spells have a DV of Force + Net Hits and an AP of -[Force], and are resisted as usual
Step 6. Resist Drain: As usual.
Step 7. Determine ongoing effects. As usual.

Given that Punch is essentially the only combat spell in the book that gets two separate attempts to resist the attack (Reaction + Intuition to avoid the Touch-Only Attack and then again to avoid the Indirect combat spell), I posit that the Punch/Clout/Blast series of spells should be Direct and not Indirect. This puts them in line with every other Direct spell in the book, clears up that whole issue with Indirect touch-only attacks, and offers magicians two options each for dealing Stun and Physical damage through Direct spells.

Thoughts?

[Lucean]

The reason for it being the only series with a touch spell is for an eventual interaction of an [element] with the hands of the caster. You'd more or less also hit yourself with the secondary elemental effects.

[Michael Chandra]

Earlier post withdrawn. Herr Brackhaus apparently has had me on his Ignore list for a while but never explicitly told me. Why he feels the need to keep sending me PMs afterwards is beyond me, but given his recent toxic behaviour towards A4BG and ZeConster, it's unwise for me to stay in this topic, as much sense as my contributions made. No use telling someone something useful they missed if they will ignore it and just send you a PM that they're ignoring you.

[Herr Brackhaus]

The reason for it being the only series with a touch spell is for an eventual interaction of an [element] with the hands of the caster. You'd more or less also hit yourself with the secondary elemental effects.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that; do we expect future spells that introduces an elemental effect to these spells?

[ZeConster]

   1.b Punch/Clout/Blast follows the same Drain formula as every other Direct spell in Core, Street Grimoire, and Shadow Spells
      Touch range Direct spells are F-6, LOS range Direct spells are F-3, and LOS (A) Direct Spells are F
      Most LOS range Indirect spells are F-3, while most LOS (A) range Indirect spells are F-1
   1.c Punch/Clout/Blast is a Physical spell that does Stun damage; there is currently no Direct spell with these attributes in Core, Street Grimoire, or Shadow Spells
      Death Touch/Manabolt/Manaball are Mana spells that do Physical damage
      Shatter/Powerbolt/Powerball are Physical spells that do Physical damage
      Knockout/Stunbolt/Stunball are Mana spells that do Stun damage

1.b: "Most" Indirect spells - both the Napalm tree and Ice Storm tree have different Drain Formulas. And the different Drain Formula for the Blast tree could be explained by other factors - it's not elemental (so there's no dice pool bonus to be gotten from armor modifications), and it's the only Indirect spell tree that deals Stun damage, giving magicians a non-lethal Indirect spell.
1.c: It's not the existence of an Indirect Physical Stun-damage spell that's confusing, but the existence of a Physical Stun-damage spell - the only purpose I see for a spell that can affect non-living objects, but only deals Stun damage (which barriers, electronics, drones and vehicles all explicitly ignore, and I would wager nearly all objects do), would be knocking things over, which doesn't really fit a Direct spell. So my guess is they started with "how about a spell that punches people?" and progressed from there.

The reason for it being the only series with a touch spell is for an eventual interaction of an [element] with the hands of the caster. You'd more or less also hit yourself with the secondary elemental effects.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that; do we expect future spells that introduces an elemental effect to these spells?

My guess is Lucean means delivering an elemental spell through a touch attack is creepy and should by logical conclusion damage the caster somehow (although the Elemental Strike and Elemental Body adept powers have exception clauses for such effects).

[DigitalZombie]

Hmm it would make sense that direct combat spells, being physical and dealing stun damage would exist with the drain code as you described.
And it is odd that there isnt an indirect  spell with the same range categories doing physical damage, instead of stun.

But in your direct spell description step 5:

Direct:
Step 5. Determine effects: Direct spells are resisted only with Body (Physical spells) or Willpower (Mana spells), so the target of the spell in this case rolls Willpower A since Death Touch is a Mana spell, with hits reducing the DV, in this case 6

Thats the net hits on his spellcasting test right? not the force of the spell.

Hmm I actually find it odd that you can choose the target first, then connect with a touch attack and then choose the force of the spell:
that would be like: I hit him with a punch spell (rolls to hit and opponent dodges out of the way) ... eeh with a force 1 spell naturally. Next combat turn: I hit him again with the same spell (rolls to hit and connects with opponent) Nice, force 9 of course.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Hmm it would make sense that direct combat spells, being physical and dealing stun damage would exist with the drain code as you described.
And it is odd that there isnt an indirect  spell with the same range categories doing physical damage, instead of stun.

My thoughts exactly.

But in your direct spell description step 5:

Direct:
Step 5. Determine effects: Direct spells are resisted only with Body (Physical spells) or Willpower (Mana spells), so the target of the spell in this case rolls Willpower A since Death Touch is a Mana spell, with hits reducing the DV, in this case 6

Thats the net hits on his spellcasting test right? not the force of the spell.

Right you are. Updating original post.

Hmm I actually find it odd that you can choose the target first, then connect with a touch attack and then choose the force of the spell:
that would be like: I hit him with a punch spell (rolls to hit and opponent dodges out of the way) ... eeh with a force 1 spell naturally. Next combat turn: I hit him again with the same spell (rolls to hit and connects with opponent) Nice, force 9 of course.

Also a good point, though this applies to all Touch range spells whether they are indirect or direct. Perhaps a Gentleman's Agreement needs to be in place between player and GM so that neither attempts "strategies" like this.

Alternatively, you just perform steps 1 through 5 and then make all rolls in step 6 (determine effects); this would bypass the issue of rolling the attack before determining force, though this would be considered a houserule by some, I'm sure.

[ZeConster]

Hang on - I went through the spell lists to doublecheck if there's any Indirect spells that deal Stun damage other than the Blast tree, and although I didn't find any, Shadow Spells does have Chill and Frigid: Direct Physical spells that deal Stun damage. This negates point 1c:

1.c Punch/Clout/Blast is a Physical spell that does Stun damage; there is currently no Direct spell with these attributes in Core, Street Grimoire, or Shadow Spells

So not only would making the Blast tree Direct spells rob magicians of the only existing Indirect Stun spells that exist in Core, Street Grimoire, and Shadow Spells; Direct spells that are Physical and deal Stun damage already exist.

[Xenon]

They should be indirect combat spells. You place your finger on someone and they are punched across the room.

You don't always need to land a touch attack in order to cast a touch range spell, only if the target actively is trying to avoid getting touched by you. You can for example put your hand on an unsuspecting target while you both ride the elevator - no need to roll dice to see if you physically connect in this case.

You don't cast a touch range attack at all unless you physically touch the target. You need to establish the link before the spell can be cast. You also don't resist drain from a spell you never cast because you could not establish a link to the target in the first place.