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What's the best exceptional attribute?

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ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #15 on: <11-25-14/2345:10> »
Strength / 3 = rc, according to core book, combat section. Therefore, 15 / 3 = 5 rc.
13 / 3 = 5 rc too because you always round up unless mentioned otherwise.
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Lucean

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« Reply #16 on: <11-26-14/0328:36> »
Strength / 3 = rc, according to core book, combat section. Therefore, 15 / 3 = 5 rc. Unless that's been changed in errata. So, take an Ares alpha, add shock pad and gas vent 3, factor in first round for free, and he can fire 12 rounds with no recoil. That is 4 burst fires in a row, or 2 simple full auto. Or worse, hmg with hip brace, gas vent 3, and gyro mount for 15 recoil comp total. And then he can whip out a combat axe if necessary. That is scary.
Aside from ZeldaBravo repeating what you've already been told, maybe you should read up the errata on recoil:
Quote
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting
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So if you're not using complex actions to fire, the most you'll ever need is 5RC from STR and gear with simple FA, because you get 1 free RC with every shot.
Add a Foregrip to your Ares Alpha and it can be fired with STR 4 for a complex Full Auto without RC.
Using simple actions to fire allow you to take aim or cover in between shots, which should not be underestimated :)

Kincaid

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« Reply #17 on: <11-26-14/0855:19> »
Magic or Resonance.  Outside of fluff reasons, the spreadsheet-infused part of my brain refuses to allow me to use EA on any normal stat because math.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #18 on: <11-26-14/2329:02> »
Edge.  Agility.  Intuition.  Willpower.  That's pretty much it, for me - Logic if you have a decker / technomancer that desperately needs that last point, ditto on Charisma for the face; any of the mentals for a mage's Drain attributes.  But when it boils down to it, the other two Mental attributes can be boosted, and while every physical attribute can, it's nice to be able to eke out that last bit of Agility.  And Edge because otherwise you just can't boost it past its limit, period.
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Marcus

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« Reply #19 on: <11-27-14/0159:38> »
Edge. As its the only Stat that Universally useful regardless of build
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Fedifensor

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« Reply #20 on: <11-27-14/1300:03> »
Edge. As its the only Stat that Universally useful regardless of build
Edge may be useful, but it's not easy to use Lucky at character creation without wasting points.  A human with Metatype priority C gets 5 special attribute points, which is enough to get Edge to 7 (thanks to the Human bonus on Edge).  To get Edge to 8, you have to get the Lucky quality, go with Metatype priority B, and have 1 special attribute point wasted (unless you're also magically active)? 

Elves can get to a 7 Edge without wasting points, but are still burning a B priority on it (plus the Lucky quality, of course).  Dwarves, Orks have to burn their A priority, and Trolls can't do it at all during character creation.

After character creation, you are looking at spending 68 Karma (28 for the Lucky quality, 40 points to raise Edge from 7 to 8 ).  Overall, Lucky just isn't worth the expenditure.

Magic or Resonance.  Outside of fluff reasons, the spreadsheet-infused part of my brain refuses to allow me to use EA on any normal stat because math.
Care to share the math on this?  Are you comparing the costs to raise a stat versus the associated skills?  Does training time factor into the final calculation?
« Last Edit: <11-27-14/1401:48> by Fedifensor »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <11-27-14/1356:27> »
See math-wise I'd go against magic myself. Yes, you can weigh Exceptional Magic + 1 SAP > no Exceptional Magic + 1 edge more versus having to buy 1 more magic later. But here's the thing: You win a bit of karma in return for not being to ever exceptional another attribute. Magic is unlimited and Initiations are cheap so you're soon going to reach the point where the Exceptional status means nothing for your maximum except for a bit of karma saved. Meanwhile, your other attributes are hardcapped to a natural maximum. As I said before:

A raised maximum Initiation level isn't that big a deal though. By that time an Initiation costs 31 karma. And until you take that seventh Initiation grade, which you could also unlock by buying Magic up to 7, you don't benefit from the raised maximum because your Initiation Grade still is simply how many initiations you took. The main benefit is sacrificing 1 Edge and 14 karma for 1 Magic, rather than 35 after chargen. For a low-Edge character it's both beneficial karma-wise and gives a nice power boost straight out of the gate.

The downside, meanwhile, is that Exceptional Magic is taking the ONE uncapped attribute, so you cannot exceptional another attribute in return for just a bit of karma profit and an initial power boost. It may make more sense for mages to buff their willpower since they can always get Magic 7 later and 1 extra point of Edge is also real useful straight out of the gate.

The only exception really is Mystic Adepts, since they cannot get that seventh PP for karma without Exceptional Magic and getting all seven in chargen.
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #22 on: <11-27-14/1411:19> »
i kinda like it for mages tbh, raising a stat from 6-7 takes 40 karma with the pre requisite that you initiate before to raise your max magic, which is 13 karma iirc.
so for 14 karma and 1 SAP you can get 53 karma straight out of the door.
I've used it with older characters to represent their initiations (because you can't start initiated at chargen) or for chars where i know i want to develop other things first whilst leaving magic static for a while.
Granted, as a GM if i saw this on a clearly min-maxxed munchkin build i'd be extremely hesitant to allow it, but when flavourful or in context i think its a reasonable pick.
Certainly on pbp games i'd be fine with it, they die often before karma is awarded

I also kinda like it on Technomancers. they're bad enough that getting them to RES 7 in chargen is a bit of a help for not a huge investment
« Last Edit: <11-27-14/1412:52> by Csjarrat »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <11-27-14/1419:15> »
35, not 40. And you'd get that Initiation anyway, so it's not a karma benefit. Plus you lose out on Edge. So at the very least, you spend 14 karma + 10 (the value of 1->2 Edge) for 35, which means at best you save 11 karma + you get a headstart of a few sessions. However, the headstart is essentially worthless after a while. Meanwhile, Exceptional <normal attribute> is irreplacable, meaning you actually gain something karma cannot buy afterwards.
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #24 on: <11-27-14/1755:51> »
initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total. if you're getting 5 karma per run then you're looking at 9-10 runs of doing nothing else with your karma and at least 1 month of downtime to initiate. Of course you could expediate it by trading cash for karma, but you're still looking at quite a lot of real life time and in-game time before you can get it.

I don't get where EDG comes in to the maths mate, i must have missed something...
if you're taking Human, 3 (priority D) and Magic A for MAG 6; then 1 SAP gets you to MAG 7 with 14 karma spent only on exceptional attribute.
your other 2 SAP get you to EDG 4.
Its a bargain really.
I get that using it on AGI or BOD or something is cool, but for a mage, its rare that i have enough attrib points to get my physical stats that high anyway, they go into mental stats for drain pool. I can def see the value in getting WIL 7 or something that you can't boost otherwise, but i like it for magic and resonance, especially for games where longevity might not be great.
« Last Edit: <11-27-14/1805:35> by Csjarrat »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: <11-27-14/1935:09> »
initiation gets you a metamagic though, it doesn't get you to MAG 7 iirc? you'd have to then raise your MAG to 7 using karma. (pg 325, SR5 core)
So the total to get to MAG 7 without it would be initiation which costs 13 karma (and 1 month of downtime), plus 35 karma to raise the attrib. which is 48 total.
As I said, the Initiation wouldn't count for the karma benefit because you're going to initiate anyway, no matter whether your Magic is 6 or 7. So that doesn't count for the karma saving. In other words, you SOLELY save the 7x5=35 karma that I stated, in return for spending 14 and wasting 10 at the very least. Your example with 4 Edge instead of 5 Edge is in fact inferior karmawise: That 5th Edge point is 25 karma, while Exceptional Attribute is 14, so you're wasting the equivalence of 39 karma to save 35.

Sure, for short games it's a nice power boost, but your math is wrong longterm and you're basically crippling the character longterm by going for a short-term benefit. That's not a bargain under any karma-efficient definition.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #26 on: <11-27-14/1945:51> »
Personally, I'd say that Agility would be the best choice for Exceptional Attribute (even, or perhaps especially as an Elf). This is because that attribute goes into perhaps the single largest number of tests. Conversely, Intuition could be considered a tie for this because it is one of the few attributes that can not be directly augmented (outside of choosing it for the Increase <Attribute> spell of course).
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Kincaid

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« Reply #27 on: <11-27-14/2136:51> »
I'll post something more in depth tomorrow, but the tryptophan is setting in.

Resonance > Magic >>> Intuition >= Reaction is basically how I see it.  Edge really comes down to how your game is run and how the rest of your character operates--it's certainly possible to make an Edge 8 character with smaller dice pools that revolves around spending Edge often, but that's really a character mechanic and not a universal truth about how to apply Exceptional Attribute.  Yes, Edge is great, but unless I'm in a CMP, my Edge 5 character rarely uses all of his Edge in single SRM session.  If he had an Edge of 8, I'd never use that final point.
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8-bit

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« Reply #28 on: <11-27-14/2319:35> »
I also don't see how Lucky (the Exceptional Attribute for Edge) is useful in a Priority System. I could maybe see it being useful if you could raise it manually, but in the Priority system, you lose out on something else to gain that extra Edge (not to mention that humans waste SAPs at Priority A or B unless they are not mundane, and that requires another priority slot). Whether it's Attributes, Skills, or even just Money; you lose something to get 1 extra Edge. When you can easily get 7 Edge for a lower priority without losing stuff (as a human), I really don't see how 8 Edge is that useful.

Marcus

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« Reply #29 on: <11-27-14/2345:35> »
Exceptional Magic has some uses I agree. But regardless it remains useful to only to a subset of archetypes.
Making not  the best exceptional. Agility is also only useful a subset of Archetypes.For the same reason above.
A Strong argument can be made for reaction or intuition,  as all character need initiative, and skills or defensive rolls.
However given that you can bypass initiative with Edge I don't accept those two ether. Which simply means that very high Edge can and will help all characters.
Which means its is the best Exceptional stat, across the board. 

The uses of Edge are broad and having a High Value matters more when your adding dice with it, there is no real downside to it.
 
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