[Azmodael]

The whole problem lies in different cost for things in chargen and post chargen. Every system that has those encourages power play. Its a fact of RPG systems.

MA are forced to start with maxxed PP simply because PP are the single most cost-effective thing to spend karma on and also because everything else can be actually bought post-chargen. Its entirely possible to start with less PP of course, you are just robbing your character out of raw power.

Some people are OK with that, other people are not.

The problem is when people are not aware of that or people who are good at maths play with people that are not. I myself joined a new group recently and accidentally made much power powerful character then the rest of the players simply because I was aware of the kinks of the system. And its getting worse as we gain Karma.

PS: PP efficiency also is very dependant on what you spend it on. The power difference between varying Adept powers is staggering. For example Ability Boost 1 is the best thing you could possibly buy. For 0.25 PP you get an average 2 Attribute points (with 6 starting magic, 7 dicepool averages 2 hits) that can be worth 50+xp if said attribute is already high.

On the other hand there is for example Counterstrike which is an absolutely horrible power. At 1PP per level it adds 1 DIE if you take the defensive action this turn.

[Sabato Kuroi]

Well on paper many powers seem great.Attribute boost is good, but it takes a simple action to activate and it drains you.If you have things like foci, elemental strike etc you are going to be a sitting duck until you re ready to fight.For me anything more than a single Initiative Pass to activate your powers  is too much and again  that is only acceptable if you have a high initiative score.Unless we re talking about free actions.

I generally dont suck in character generation but there are certainly much much better character builders out there.On the other hand my strong point is battle, I tend to use well the characters I play so I don't worry too much about my build

[Triskavanski]

There is a few things I'd want to point out, in why using Attribute cost post creation for PP is a bad thing.

Lets say the person is concerned with having power points, so they start off with Six, the maximum they could get from the start (Without some other methods of increasing magic) This costs them 30 points. Now that the game starts, it costs 35 points to go to the 7th pp.

But you've got the Metamagic that gives you a free PP from initiation, which costs you 13 points. 13 vs 35 is a pretty big difference. Now some people might say "Well then you're giving up other needed metamagics to get the power point." But thats the thing, spending 35 points of karma.. You're giving up not one, but TWO needed metamagics, to get something that would have cost you 13 points from game start.

You can actually initiate a total of 8 times before you pass the cost of a 7th pp.

I can understand the want of a less 'Mystic' adept and more of an Adept with light magic, but this is kinda the wrong way of doing it. As long as you've got the cheaper metamagic way of doing it, the more expensive attribute way adds basically nothing to the game but more words. Then if you remove that cheaper way, you essentially make MAs more dependent on those first six points they could get.

If anything, the cost Post Character creation should be 10 points, but you have to buy that magic point. In Character creation, there should be an option to sacrifice two spells for one Power point or you spend 5 karma. This would balance out a lot more without karma strangling the MA

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

As usual, Trisk, you aren't seeing the reasoning behind Power Points As Attributes - which I explained in the prior thread.  It's so that you can gain a decent number of Power Points while still acquiring metamagics.

Take Hawatari.  After something like nine years of game play, the game had progressed, timewise, to when I wanted her to Awaken - and she herself had advanced sufficiently so that she didn't have much further to go as a mundane, she needed another area to focus her karma on.  She has a carefully-hoarded Essence of 2.01, so when she Awakens, I can only purchase her Magic up to 2, and ditto with her Power Points - each power point purchased at the 'Awakening' cost of 5 per point, so 10 points.  She's also automatically following the Magician's Way, which is another chunk of change, but I'd been saving for a while, so there you go.

Thing is, I want her first initiations to focus less on 'more adept power' and more on 'what kind of magic she possesses - she's a mystic adept, sure, but she gets penalties to everything but 'Defensive' or personal-use magical skills - the only thing she doesn't get -4 dice to are Counterspelling, Banishing, Disenchanting, Assensing, and Astral Combat.  Her first initiation goes to Shielding then, because one of her initial adept powers (with Way discount applied) is Astral Perception, she picks up Masking.  Each time, she can increase her Magic, and does - but she's still only got 2 Power Points, and getting more is going to cost her an Initiation.  So, with the 'Power Points purchased as if an Attribute, but only up to (Magic) in number' rule, she can purchase two more power points without having to undergo the tests for initiation.

Does it cost more in karma?  Sure does.  Gets really expensive really quickly - at this point, she's purchased a total of four, for 60 extra karma, four initiation's worth.  But in my mind, an Initiation is more than just 'okay, so you initiate and get a chance to get a metamagic, yadda yadda' - it's stretching your understanding of magic as a whole, it's expanding the power of your previously-learned metamagics, it's widening your entire perspective on magic.  Initiation has a very heavy role-play requirement in my game, and if you can't take the time off of running to undergo the rituals and all, or if all you want is that extra Power Point, then you don't really have a reason to undergo another degree of initiation.

This doesn't make it a 'bad thing', though; it just makes it an alternate option for advancement, one in which the spiritual/educational importance of Initiation is emphasized.

[Sendaz]

*starts laying out the plastic sheeting on the floor and getting the chalk ready*

[adzling]

As you note these are your own reasons and your own rationals.
Not the game's nor the rules.
Mystic Adepts gain PP through initiation post chargen and via nothing else.
This is important otherwise there would be no mages, just mystic adepts as otherwise there would be almost no reason to take a true mage over a mystic adept.

This whole thread is equivalent to arguing that "my mage should also be able to be a technomancer" or "my 0.1 essence Street Sam should be able to become a mage".

It's just directly contradicted by the rules and mystic adepts do NOT need more power/ options as they already have more power and options than any other "class".

<sigh>

well i may as well go ahead and get that barrell mounted claymore I wanted i mean if mystic adepts get to break the rules for MORE POWAZ then hells what's a little claymore mine strapped to the end of my pistol/ smg/ knife etc.

Thing is, I want her first initiations to focus less on 'more adept power' and more on 'what kind of magic she possesses - she's a mystic adept, sure, but she gets penalties to everything but 'Defensive' or personal-use magical skills - the only thing she doesn't get -4 dice to are Counterspelling, Banishing, Disenchanting, Assensing, and Astral Combat.  Her first initiation goes to Shielding then, because one of her initial adept powers (with Way discount applied) is Astral Perception, she picks up Masking.  Each time, she can increase her Magic, and does - but she's still only got 2 Power Points, and getting more is going to cost her an Initiation.  So, with the 'Power Points purchased as if an Attribute, but only up to (Magic) in number' rule, she can purchase two more power points without having to undergo the tests for initiation.

Does it cost more in karma?  Sure does.  Gets really expensive really quickly - at this point, she's purchased a total of four, for 60 extra karma, four initiation's worth.  But in my mind, an Initiation is more than just 'okay, so you initiate and get a chance to get a metamagic, yadda yadda' - it's stretching your understanding of magic as a whole, it's expanding the power of your previously-learned metamagics, it's widening your entire perspective on magic.  Initiation has a very heavy role-play requirement in my game, and if you can't take the time off of running to undergo the rituals and all, or if all you want is that extra Power Point, then you don't really have a reason to undergo another degree of initiation.

[MijRai]

As you note these are your own reasons and your own rationals.
Not the game's nor the rules.
Mystic Adepts gain PP through initiation post chargen and via nothing else.
This is important otherwise there would be no mages, just mystic adepts as otherwise there would be almost no reason to take a true mage over a mystic adept.

This whole thread is equivalent to arguing that "my mage should also be able to be a technomancer" or "my 0.1 essence Street Sam should be able to become a mage".

It's just directly contradicted by the rules and mystic adepts do NOT need more power/ options as they already have more power and options than any other "class".

<sigh>

well i may as well go ahead and get that barrell mounted claymore I wanted i mean if mystic adepts get to break the rules for MORE POWAZ then hells what's a little claymore mine strapped to the end of my pistol/ smg/ knife etc.

And as most of us in the thread have stated, we think Initiation should not be the only way to gain more power-points, for various reasons.  Like I said before, if you think the thread is a waste of time, stop posting in it, because you're keeping it alive otherwise. 

Mages get Astral Projection and don't have to split their karma between power-points and other stuff.  Your statement is invalid.  On top of that, why does the game bother to have aspected magicians, when you can just be a normal magician with none of the flaws?  Just because something can be more powerful, doesn't mean it's broken. 

The idea that you can't pick up more power-points, sans Initiation, still makes no sense.  How does a mystic adept who starts with 6 power-points do that (or 7, though that's unlikely)?  Why can't the mystic adept with a single power-point pick up more power-points after whatever constitutes 'character creation' in-game?  Please explain.  And, if someone wants to spend 35+ karma for a single power-point (as the Attribute cost method would take to get over 6, which is the 'cap' on mystic adept power-points right now), why not let them?  That karma is being spent, it's expensive; that's 6 spells, another attribute up to that level.

Again, this isn't a thread about giving them more power; it's a thread about figuring a cost to power-points for after character creation.  I'm not saying mystic adepts should just be able to buy all the power-points they want, whenever for cheap.  I'm saying it should be possible that they can be purchased without Initiation.  Maybe there can be a cap on it so mystic adepts can only by power-points up to their Magic, pre-Initiation.  That would keep the power-scale at the same point it is currently, while still allowing improvement for those who start without being optimized just because you can't do it later.  There's plenty of options to keep it fair and balanced, while still allowing improvement, and without locking all of a mystic adept's potential out after CC.  Comparing it to 'my mage should be a technomancer' and 'my .1 Essence street sam should be able to become a mage' is just flat-out invalid (though, a 1.00 Essence street sam could totally become a mage). 

The difference between strapping live explosives to detonate against your gun and having mystic adepts be able to reach the peak of mystic adept potential (a potential which is explicitly in the rules, we aren't saying anything about boosting them to an insane degree just for laughs) are two very different things.  This isn't an argument that mystic adepts should break the rules for 'MORE POWAZ', it's a discussion about a balanced cost to a power in order to fix something that's incorrect to most of us.  So, how about you stop calling us all munchkins and make an actual point as to why a mystic adept with 6 Magic and 1 power-point should not be able to get more, without Initiation, besides 'the book says you shouldn't'.  Or, please explain why the book saying you shouldn't is valid, when that 1 power-point mystic adept is now inferior to the 6 power-point mystic adept for the rest of their lives. 

[adzling]

Mystica Adepts must make trade offs to be able to access both Adept and Mage spells.
The only sacrifice that is required is loss of astral projection and restriction of access to pp post chargen via initiation only.

remove those two items and mystic adepts AND THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY A MAGE.
so why bother having it in the rule book?

remove just the requirement to initiate AND THERE IS NO REASON TO TAKE AN ADEPT.

I mean come on guys, are you so blinded by your thirst for unlimited POWAZ that you can't stop and realize that mystic adepts are not meant to be the only choice but one of many choices.

By removing the limitations specifically placed upon them you remove the reason to play an adept or mage.

The choice of a Way OR PP for mystic adepts is one of the specific sacrifices a mystic adept must choose at chargen.

you're removing that limitation and so boosting m.a.'s power and options significantly where they already have more options and access to more power inherently.

just, imho, pure power grab. <edit replaced the word munchkinizing with the phrase *power grab*>

now you may be upset that I say that, but the pure facts point to this.

"I will remove all checks and balances to ensure that my toon has more options and powaz than anyone else" is inherently borked.

we don't let these kinds of self-serving overreaches fly at our table.
perhaps you do, that's up to you.
but i am free to tell you I think you're off base and why you are.

plain and simple M.A.s are the single most abused "class" in Srun and these types of "poor mystic adepts need more POWAZ at chargen" threads are prevalent across all Srun forums I am party too and they are ALL started by people playing M.A.s that WANT MORE POWAZ dammit.

<sigh>

[All4BigGuns]

remove those two items and mystic adepts AND THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY A MAGE.
so why bother having it in the rule book?

Patently false statement. Number one, Astral Projection is potentially a very potent ability both for scouting purposes and when dealing with spirits and dual-natured creatures/people. Just because someone's group doesn't really make use of it much doesn't change that. Finally, wanting to play a character more focused on casting rather than having one's focus split between both sides is plenty of reason.

remove just the requirement to initiate AND THERE IS NO REASON TO TAKE AN ADEPT.

Another patently false statement. Just like with the other, wanting a character focused entirely on being an Adept rather than splitting focus between both Adept and Spellcaster is all the reason necessary to play one.


The same goes for an Aspected Sorceror, Aspected Conjuror or Aspected Enchanter. Wanting a character that is entirely focused in the chosen area is all the reason necessary to play one. Though, these do have the additional side benefit of having a higher Magic rating at lower Priority.

plain and simple M.A.s are the single most abused "class" in Srun and these types of "poor mystic adepts need more POWAZ at chargen" threads are prevalent across all Srun forums I am party too and they are ALL started by people playing M.A.s that WANT MORE POWAZ dammit.

Also, it isn't about "More Powaz" or any such drivel. It is plainly and simply about patching the fact that it is utterly ridiculous that Mystic Adept A that takes 4 Power Points in generation will be permanently behind Mystic Adept B who takes the full 6 Power Points in generation by the difference in their starting amount.

In Character creation, there should be an option to sacrifice two spells for one Power point or you spend 5 karma.

To be frank, this would be the best way of handling the initial Power Points. Just add in a caveat that no more than six spells could be sacrificed in this way and bada-bing bada-boom, you have a perfect system for it.

[DigitalZombie]

@adzling I dont think the OP wants a more powerful MA build, he just wants more than 1 build,  its not about more POWAZ.
Your suggestion of sticking to the current rules only results in one thing namely all MAs at OPs table starts the game as MAX PP generic MAs (which I presume the OP find rather  non-exciting)

I can see from your reply in another post that your example given included a MA with max PP and a "way". But thats not what OP is requesting.


He is asking for an alternative than the current PP system, if you dont have an alternative, then your reply doesnt really have a lot of value regarding his request.
Its like saying: I dont like candy X, does anyone have any other candy suggestions? like Y or Z?
Answer: eat candy X
OP: Ive tried candy X, I dont like it, do you have another suggestion?
Answer: EAT candy X!!

[MijRai]

Mystica Adepts must make trade offs to be able to access both Adept and Mage spells.
The only sacrifice that is required is loss of astral projection and restriction of access to pp post chargen via initiation only.

remove those two items and mystic adepts AND THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY A MAGE.
so why bother having it in the rule book?

remove just the requirement to initiate AND THERE IS NO REASON TO TAKE AN ADEPT.

I mean come on guys, are you so blinded by your thirst for unlimited POWAZ that you can't stop and realize that mystic adepts are not meant to be the only choice but one of many choices.

By removing the limitations specifically placed upon them you remove the reason to play an adept or mage.

The choice of a Way OR PP for mystic adepts is one of the specific sacrifices a mystic adept must choose at chargen.

you're removing that limitation and so boosting m.a.'s power and options significantly where they already have more options and access to more power inherently.

just, imho, pure munchkinising.

now you may be upset that I say that, but the pure facts point to this.

"I will remove all checks and balances to ensure that my toon has more options and powaz than anyone else" is inherently borked.

we don't let these kinds of self-serving overreaches fly at our table.
perhaps you do, that's up to you.
but i am free to tell you I think you're off base and why you are.

plain and simple M.A.s are the single most abused "class" in Srun and these types of "poor mystic adepts need more POWAZ at chargen" threads are prevalent across all Srun forums I am party too and they are ALL started by people playing M.A.s that WANT MORE POWAZ dammit.

<sigh>

Will you stop calling us munchkins?  This is now the third time I've asked you to stop insulting the rest of us (I don't know about you, but I personally take it as an insult, and the way you're using it is derogatory).  I don't care what 'experience' you have with people in other places are.  You're taking their reactions and painting us with the same brush, which is getting irritating, to say the least. 

Like I said previously (and which you refuse to acknowledge), this isn't about letting mystic adepts buy all the power-points they want for cheap so they can be broken little super-splats.  It's about figuring out a balanced cost for letting mystic adepts pick up some power-points after character creation without Initiation, and for most of us its to make it possible for mystic adepts who don't just buy 6 power-points in character creation to acquire those power-points and be equal to other mystic adepts.  My personal goal for whatever we all can agree on is a good idea?  I want to make a character, a newly Awakened Mystic Adept, who starts with 1 Magic and 1 power-point, who improves from there, while still being able to, in the long run, be equal to other mystic adepts, not forever behind in the rat-race that is equivalency. 

Magicians still have astral projection, as well as the unstated bonus of not having to spend their experience everywhere like a mystic adept does.  Adepts still gain power-points just by increasing their Magic (they wouldn't have to spend extra like our proposed mystic adept idea), on top of any they might acquire through other means.  A mystic adept, while more powerful in 5th Edition as compared to 4th, is still not going to be as good as either a focused magician or an adept of the same level.  That's how it works. 

As I said in the first part of the response; stop calling us munchkins.  Seriously. 

You're missing something very important; a mystic adept can buy a Way later, with karma.  They can't buy power-points afterwards.  Ignoring the fact that the Ways at the moment are almost a complete waste of karma, sans a few specific powers/builds, it's still possible to acquire one.  I'm not even sure why you mentioned Ways at all, but oh well.

This conversation, as previously mentioned (in the first post, and later) isn't all about giving mystic adepts lots of power-points just to make them super-strong.  I specifically mentioned I didn't want to argue whether or not giving them the ability to buy power-points, I even gave that statement an entire line of its own in the first post.  My personal goal (as is the goal of most of the 'munchkins', as you keep calling us) is to let non-optimized mystic adepts actually pick up some power-points without spending their Initiations on it, since they are able to start at that level.

Again, first part of the response.  I try to go point by point on these things, and you keep calling us munchkins, so I'm probably going to have to refer to it again.

NONE of us have said we want to remove all of the checks and balances on mystic adepts.  No one.  Show me a person who actually said what you put in quotes around here, please. 

I don't care what you do at your table.  If you call wanting to fix the power-disparity between mystic adepts who don't min-max their character creation and the ones who do 'self-serving overreaching' and don't let it happen, that's all good for you.  You're free to disagree, sure.  Stop insulting us about it, and maybe actually read what we write so you can see our real motivations. 

Yes, mystic adepts can be easily abused, if you hand one off to a person who likes to do that kind of thing.  You can do the same with magicians, adepts, a bunch of 'ware, and pretty much anything else in the game as well.  Shadowrun isn't a perfect system.  In the end, if you play with people who like to abuse mystic adepts, it's your choice to play with them.  Even if you don't allow mystic-adepts, I bet they'll still abuse whatever other character-type they make, be it a super-face elf adept or elf summoner, tank-troll with 40-something armor when he rolls out of bed, a character who can run faster than a car, or what-have you. 

By the way, I'm the one who started this topic; I'm not playing a mystic adept in any game, online or at a table.  See that comment I made in the beginning about 'painting us all with the same brush'.  I personally don't want to play a mystic adept who starts with 6 power-points and 6 magic (see the second paragraph, where I mentioned what I want to play), but I also don't want to be stuck at a weaker level than everyone else for ever and ever, just because I can't improve my power-points like the mystic adept who started with 6 somehow did. 

On top of that, NOBODY said they want more powers for mystic adepts at chargen (in this thread, at least).  No-one.  Take a good long look.  All most of us want is that mystic adept who starts with 1 power-point to be able to get 6 eventually, just like the mystic adept who started with 6.  That's not breaking the game, that's making your character as capable as one from character-creation. 

[adzling]

I get that what all these mystic adept threads want is "more choice".

The problem is that "less choice" (re: when you take pp) is one of the primary balance aspects of a M.A.

They have the entire world of magic (almost) open to them so some restrictions are in order, and more than just those imposed by "what do i spend my karma on".

So if you remove this restriction (pp after chargen only via initiation) then you are removing one of the main planks restricting m.a.s (the only other one being no astral projection).

now I agree that no astral projection is a significant restriction, however it is a situational one that can be mostly avoided if you have a mage in your group or if you can astrally perceive (which is open to m.a.s.) or if you can summon and use spirits for reconnaissance (again open to m.a.s) so I would humbly suggest anyone claiming that restricting mas from astrally perceiving is enough balance alone are being disingenuous.

I bet we'll find that once you guys decide how you want to remove the pp through initiation restriction you'll then start to hear people clamoring for "why can't mystic adepts astrally project!".

[All4BigGuns]

NONE of us have said we want to remove all of the checks and balances on mystic adepts.  No one.  Show me a person who actually said what you put in quotes around here, please. 

Caveat: No digging through the plethora of other threads on the subject to find something you can twist into sounding like that.

now I agree that no astral projection is a significant restriction, however it is a situational one that can be mostly avoided if you have a mage in your group or if you can astrally perceive (which is open to m.a.s.) or if you can summon and use spirits for reconnaissance (again open to m.a.s) so I would humbly suggest anyone claiming that restricting mas from astrally perceiving is enough balance alone are being disingenuous.

I bet we'll find that once you guys decide how you want to remove the pp through initiation restriction you'll then start to hear people clamoring for "why can't mystic adepts astrally project!".

If the team is "getting around" the Mystic Adept not having Projection by having a Magician there to do so, then that is more proof that your statement of "BUT THERE'S NO REASON TO PLAY A MAGICIAN!" is false. On top of that, if the team covers that lack in that manner, then most likely the team is going to be lacking in some other area as well (probably hacking).

Sure, the Mystic Adept can pick up Astral Perception, but, guess what, they have to spend a full Power Point on doing so. That is a Power Point that could go to any number of other things.


As to the second quoted statement, literally no one has ever suggested that the Mystic Adept should be able to pick up Astral Projection.
Though it could be a decent idea for a power to be created that only the "standard" Adept can access to grant such an ability (of course with the prerequisite of taking Astral Perception).

[adzling]

look mijraj how would you feel if a street samurai out of chargen and playing on your table was upset that taking a character trait post chargen costed double?

Isn't that exactly equivalent to what you are suggesting re: getting m.a. pp post chargen at chargen costs because they should be able to get anything in chargen post chargen?

come on man.

and yeah, restricting pp to initiation post chargen is a key plank of ma balancing (along with no astral projection) that forces hard choices on mas so remove that and what would you put in it's place?

sorry one quick edit to this: yes mijraj there are plenty of things open to abuse in Srun. We limit them at our table as we see them crop up (see my other post re: restricting how commanding voice works for face adepts, the type of toon i play).
This falls squarely into that box as far as i am concerned; also we don't let summoners have a spirit possess their body and then drive the spirit while it drives their body like some kind of magical pony rigger. There's a whole bunch of other exploits we don't let happen either. We like to rp and build great characters that are powerful and capable but when someone turns up with an "iwin button" or a toon that can do it all through some rules hole/ lawyering we just say no. Keeps everyone happy in the end as everyone gets to shine and has their role.

ymmv

[Namikaze]

MijRai, do you only want people to post in this thread that agree with you?  If so, I'd suggest that you find a few people and start a PM conversation together.  Otherwise, people will post dissenting opinions.

Personally, I think Mystic Adepts are more powerful now than they have been in the past.  I'd rather see them go back to previous editions, where they had to split their Magic points between adept and mage.  Maybe something like that at start, with the option to then buy "casting magic" and "adept magic" at creation for 5 karma?  That didn't sound very logical the way I phrased it.  For the purposes of my example, I'm going to call the Magic rating used for spellcasting, conjuring, and alchemy to be "Power" and the Magic rating for adept powers to be "Qi."

If a character starts with 6 Magic, they then split that 6 Magic between Power and Qi.  Still during character creation, the character can choose to spend 5 Karma to buy a point of Power or Qi.

Would this not give more versatility?  If I'm understanding correctly, what you're looking for is the ability to have a lot of power points, but not necessarily a lot of spellslinging, conjuring, or alchemy.  This would allow a mystic adept to funnel their Magic into power points at creation without requiring the character to dip into negative qualities.