[Crimsondude]

After reading the original Threats book, I had high-ranking members of the Black Lodge teleport in my 2nd edition game.  Don't turn me in to the game police 

Resurrection via sorcery was also possible in 2E, IIRC.

It's amazing what is actually permitted in SR via magic (hint: everything). The only real limits are on sorcery.

[Sendaz]

It's not something anyone should know how to do, except maybe some Great Dragons or immortals. It's not teleportation. The closest explanation in the shadowtalk is that it was some sort of supercharged Levitate spell. Peri's stats mention he knows a custom Levitate spell, which I wouldn't even have mentioned. The whole point is that no one knows how, why, or what he did.

Some say Demonoe's Pizza™ uses something similar to keep with their '30 minutes anywhere in Seattle, even the Barrens' promise, but I still think they are just using bound spirits for deliveries.

Either way, it's still hot with the cheese all gooey when it gets there and that is the best magic of all.

[Wazlethwack]

Resurrection was possible?  Good heavens, how did I miss that when reading...

[Mirikon]

Also, instead of teleporting, he could have done the same trick Harlequin does, where he travels bodily through the Astral plane. There were a lot of things that were very possible in previous ages of magic, that aren't possible given what metahuman society of the Sixth World knows about magic. Dragons, Immortal Elves, and other such groups are not necessarily bound by the same rules as the rest of us.

[Crimsondude]

Resurrection was possible?  Good heavens, how did I miss that when reading...

There were guidelines prohibiting sorcery from accomplishing certain things in the original magic supplements until hard rules were established with Magic in the Shadows, the SR3 magic supplement. Resurrection was never explicitly prohibited until Street Magic (SR4 magic supplement). What happened was that someone who'd been bitching about the Shadowrun FPS, and specifically its Resurrect spell, *ahem* noticed that it was never expressly prohibited. This was in part because the metahuman soul was never classified as a "spirit," and so it didn't technically count that sorcery couldn't summon or banish spirits. MitS, 47.

However, there is no prohibition on using Conjuring to resurrect a metahuman. Some may argue that since Street Magic says "once a person has passed away, they are gone forever." 160. That is a matter of considerable doubt since exceptions have existed for the history of the game, and there is even a caveat immediately following that clause, "(though some view conjuring spirits as raising the spirits of the dead)." Id. Besides that, there are exceptions ranging from memories and personality traits assimilated by shedim or flesh forms to echoes of memory/personality being tied to a location on Earth, i.e. ghosts, to the existence of summonable spirits in astral space/metaplanes who are or are nearly indistinguishable from the dead (ancestor spirits), and at the upper end fragments of person's astral form/spirit/soul becoming a new spirit altogether (Dunkelzahn and Burnout).

In other words, magic can do damn near anything. Sorcery has limits, but there's a lot of magic beyond that field. That rule against altering the fabric of the time/space continuum, for example. Sorcery can't do that, but since SR3, the official explanation of how the Movement critter power works has been that it is a form of time dilation. That may not alter the space/time fabric, but it does stretch the shit out of it.

Also, instead of teleporting, he could have done the same trick Harlequin does, where he travels bodily through the Astral plane. There were a lot of things that were very possible in previous ages of magic, that aren't possible given what metahuman society of the Sixth World knows about magic. Dragons, Immortal Elves, and other such groups are not necessarily bound by the same rules as the rest of us.

Maybe.

[Grinder]

Nath: That's a lot of words for "haters gonna hate."

It's too easy (and not really fair) to shut dwn all critical reviews with "haters gonna hate", imo. The late SR4 books have their issues and are far from the high standard that SR sourcebooks had before. Imo, the lack of a clear vision of SR's metaplot combined with silly ideas, terrible editing, and a confusing release order of the late SR4 books make it hard to notice the few good ideas that are buried in the books. Plus it's very difficult for a writer to not keep reviews personal.

Anyway... CoD has a few nice ideas, but is too riddled with half-explained ideas, strange metaplot twists, and too many parts of confusing writing. I'ver never used the book in my campaign, unlike others that were released in the late SR4 era (i.e. Jet Set).

[Parker]

     Hatred is a negative emotion with nasty karmic retaliations.
But seriously, here's my two copper.  Whining about how IEs and the Great Dragons are 'Special Snowflakes' of the SR Game and shouldn't be allowed greater power then what 99% of the rest of magic-users would know is ridiculous!  Why, you might ask?  Perhaps because they're A) Game NPCs and B) Power-players from a prior magic world (the 4th).  So you don't like it?  Then don't use them!  Oy!!!!  Still PO'd from their very existence?  Then don't play the game as is.  Uh, h-e-l-l-o....You are still the game-master and still in charge, (that's why the term is G.O.D.---Game-master On Duty).   

Personally, I still use the magic field growth theory from the Fasa days and have no problem with the idea that ancient magic beings, both potentially allies and enemies, would have magic knowledge of the 4th World, (practical application is pretty much still your call; after all your running the game.

But like I said, that's my two copper.

[Mirikon]

The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.

[Reaver]

The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.

Well said.

[Crimsondude]

The Dragons and Immortal Elves aren't special snowflakes. To put it in terms of another genre, PCs are like Daredevil or Spiderman. Maybe the X-men. The Immortal Elves and Dragons? They're Galactus, Silver Surfer, or the Beyonder. In D&D terms, you're a level 5 Rogue, and they're a level 30 Wizard. You aren't in their league, pure and simple. Oh sure, they might have a job for you, now and then, and sometimes you might get a win against them if you're lucky and good, but don't ever think you're going to take them down, any more than you can take down all of one of the Big 10. They are high level NPCs, pure and simple. They don't operate under the same rules PCs do, but that's fine. That's why they're NPCs.

Well said.

Agreed.

Though I think the difference is that of the ~50 immortals (Great Dragons, elves, pre-Awakening free spirits, "others"), you can actually thwart them if you try. But Earth-beings messing with them regularly is the purview of the Fantastic Four, which is totally fine and generally a totally different campaign tone than Daredevil or even Iron First. On the other hand, even the Mighty Avengers have a powerhouse whose nemesis was introduced kicking the Sentry's and rest of the original MA members' asses, and fought a reality-ending foe in their first arc, but were regarded upon introduction as being "street level."

To put it another way, even Frank Castle fought Skrulls during Secret Invasion.

What has kept me coming back to them in spite of my original dislike is that I realized I could use them to show that, quite frankly, the Sixth World has no regard for how old, skilled, or "powerful" you are. There are too many Players moving too quickly and with their own tools that it will chew you up and leave you broken if you aren't careful.

[Mirikon]

Indeed. Just remember to know your limits and manage expectations. You might be able to thwart one of Lofwyr's plans this time, but don't expect you've taken down Lofwyr himself. You may have handed the Big A a loss, maybe even destroyed a building or crippled one of their local branches or subsidiaries for a while, but don't think you've brought down Aztechnology as a whole. As a target for a run, the IEs and Great Dragons are perfectly valid targets. Just make sure you're careful to clean up the evidence, and don't go to the point where they take a personal interest in your discontinued well being. For example, pulling a job in Denver to try and thwart Ghostwalker's efforts to kick the Azzies back out? As long as you clean up after yourself, you're probably in the clear. Steal something from Ghostwalker's office, or from his lair in Cheyenne Mountain? You're so very fucked. Oh, maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but someday, and for the rest of your (presumably short) life.