[Poindexter]

OK, so if you've got the SINer quality, you gotta pay taxes on your income, right?

couple questions

1- How do you report illegal income? Do shadowrunners have money launderers? Or do they have legal sources of income?

2- How come you don't have to pay taxes on fake SINs? I mean, as far as the tax man knows, that's a real person with a real job who should be paying taxes, right?

so, how do the details on this work out?

[martinchaen]

It's a mechanical piece of the rules; I'd suggest just accepting it for what it is.

If you absolutely want to come up with a story reason for the tax, think of it as a cost of doing business. Keeping the IRS off your back, making regular payments to make it seem like your real SIN is operating above board.

As for your second question, you don't pay taxes on your fake SIN because runners, according to the stories at least, go through fake SINs like old socks; if you're running with the same SIN you started with after 50 runs, some might say that your GM is being a little too lenient on the pervasiveness of surveillance and data tracking in the Shadowrun world.

[ZeConster]

Paying 'taxes' on all your income is an abstraction - the same abstraction that allows runners to keep all their money if their fake SIN gets burned, instead of their bank accounts being frozen.

[TormDK]

At my tables, runners are doing Money laundry through their contacts by having fake employment records. So the runners pay their own salaries with the contact getting a cut (5-15% depending on negotiation)

[8-bit]

I had this question in this thread: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17875.0

As Emperor's Grace said about it, and I think this reflects it pretty accurately in most situations, "Don't think of it as taxes, think of it as bribes, etc...". If you don't think of it as taxes on your income (since you don't report it you technically have 0 income which can't be taxed) and you think of it more as a bribe to keep the taxman away and not report you, then it works better. You could also optionally make National SINs just add to your Lifestyle cost, since it kind of represents you (il)legally renting a place. I still think that the bribe idea works better for the other types of SINs though, as I can't exactly see you paying taxes on money you stole from one megacorp to another and still be able to maintain a life as a Shadowrunner.

[Whiskeyjack]

If you have a legal SIN, report zero income and are still living at a relatively good lifestyle that they can fairly easily find, it's going to be suspicious as hell and probably trigger an audit. An unpleasant audit.

I had a real issue with framing this as a "tax" when 5e came out, but ti kind of works to keep your real SIN looking as "normal" as possible. Even if you're a Corp kid taking sabbatical, one assumes you'd still be making some income, which would be taxable. The "bribe the IRS to look the other way" is also a legit way of viewing it but in the end it's best not to think about the "why" of it too hard.

[LionofPerth]

I suppose it depends more on your character.

To touch on the why for a moment, you can explain it in a number of ways. The first has been well covered, bribes. To keep people not-interested in you, you know someone who likes a little on the side and makes sure you're not causing problems.

Second option is laundering and my preference for the matter. That you're making yourself look like a contractor and that you have regular payments come in, to keep the bills and auditors away. Sure it's harder to spend, but who says you declare all your liquid assets?

Beyond that, the thing really does boil down to how deep you want to take things. There's such thing as taking it too deep.

[Novocrane]

Paying 'taxes' on all your income is an abstraction - the same abstraction that allows runners to keep all their money if their fake SIN gets burned, instead of their bank accounts being frozen.

While I support enjoying the game without taking things to an unplayable extreme (albeit at times curious as to what constitutes an unplayable extreme), it's not difficult to burn accounts attached to SINs without it being excessive. Have players keep certified credsticks, and only use SIN accounts to hold money that has to be there. (for whatever reasons, if any)

[8-bit]

Paying 'taxes' on all your income is an abstraction - the same abstraction that allows runners to keep all their money if their fake SIN gets burned, instead of their bank accounts being frozen.

While I support enjoying the game without taking things to an unplayable extreme (albeit at times curious as to what constitutes an unplayable extreme), it's not difficult to burn accounts attached to SINs without it being excessive. Have players keep certified credsticks, and only use SIN accounts to hold money that has to be there. (for whatever reasons, if any)

It's not like "normal" people don't use credsticks anyways. A legal person uses credsticks to probably pay for pretty much everything, if they need more, they go to their back account and reload their credstick. Unless they get payed exclusively in scrip, credsticks are basically the universal credit card that doesn't charge interest; it's convenient, portable, and accepted almost everywhere. I would reason then that someone with a Fake SIN can pass as an entirely legal person without having a banking account, just using credsticks. This does bring up an interesting dilemna, because if someone probes deeper into their history, where are they getting their credsticks funded? Not from a bank account usually.

Kind of does bring up an issue though, since credsticks in SR5 are entirely unhackable, you could just have a "legal" credstick set up with just enough money to pay rent etc, which would be the only credstick that the taxman would see. If you have a Low Lifestyle, that is equivalent to about 2,000 nuyen a month, give or take, and I just don't see how a taxman would know about your other credsticks unless he physically had all of them in his hands (which, let's be honest, as a Shadowrunner that's a bad idea). However, maybe that is getting a little too theoretical and realistic. At some point, you have to step back and say, "The rules are there for a reason, it's a negative Quality for a reason, let's either just follow them or come up with an acceptable compromise with my GM."

[Novocrane]

It used to be that you could use your credstick to make purchases or transfer money. Perfect for us shadow folks, since certified credsticks made a great anonymous money system.

Now, everyone utilizes their commlink.

Registered credsticks are almost obsolete, unfortunately, gone the way of past human monetary systems like shells, gems, gold, and paper currency.

A lot of stores don’t even carry credstick readers anymore.

> Registered credsticks may be out, but you can still use (and misuse) certified credsticks. Most banks will accept them and they do provide a measure of security, since it allows shadowy folks like us to hide our cash transactions. Or if you’re truly paranoid, many of the greymarket banks will issue anonymous credit and ID tokens.
> Mr. Bonds

The bad news is that you can be physically mugged, any money you have on your credstick jacked and rolled. The good news is that certified credsticks are completely untraceable.

Note the difference between registered and certified credsticks. We are ostensibly waiting on Data Trails for anonymous banking (as well as things like skinlink ...), but certified (anonymous) credsticks and registered (SIN linked) accounts are enough to work with. (note also that while 4e was phasing out credsticks in the legit world, commlinks still have credstick readers as standard)

I just don't see how a taxman would know about your other credsticks unless he physically had all of them in his hands

Very much an abstraction there ...

"Unhackable" is an unfortunate word choice, as is "untraceable". If you're having money just pop into your account from a source that can't be verified outside of Z-O, then while I can think of a few ways by which one could be expected to authenticate their tax report, RAW it's just going to be handwaved.

[ZeConster]

Paying 'taxes' on all your income is an abstraction - the same abstraction that allows runners to keep all their money if their fake SIN gets burned, instead of their bank accounts being frozen.

While I support enjoying the game without taking things to an unplayable extreme (albeit at times curious as to what constitutes an unplayable extreme), it's not difficult to burn accounts attached to SINs without it being excessive. Have players keep certified credsticks, and only use SIN accounts to hold money that has to be there. (for whatever reasons, if any)

The bad news is that you can be physically mugged, any money you have on your credstick jacked and rolled.

[Novocrane]

You know you can put them somewhere safe, right? Doesn't hurt that I already quoted that, either.

[ZeConster]

In a later post, yes - not in your initial reply to me. And with all the hassle and bookkeeping that comes with putting all your money on certified credsticks (you'd need a list with the location, color and amount of nuyen on each credstick, and you can still get mugged while heading to deposit your payment or when heading out to buy some new gear, plus "somewhere safe": is a relative concept), it's easier to just accept the abstraction that having a Low+ Lifestyle gives.

[Poindexter]

thanks for all the responses. Ive got a much better idea of how the first question resolves in game and how im going to abstract it for my games.

The second question though...

"How come you don't have to pay taxes on a fake SIN?"

Still aint heard much on that one.

[martinchaen]

I'd reiterate that runners go through fake SINs like they were socks; having to pay "taxes" on a fake SIN would be mechanically disadvantageous.

In other words; if you have a real SIN you care about it, because one day it might be your only ticket to retirement.

If you have a fake SIN, you don't care about it and the tax man probably doesn't come until a year after you haven't paid tax. If you're still using the same fake SIN after a year and a half, chances are you're about to be dead. At least from a fiction point of view, mention is made of one of the veteran runners ditching their fake SIN once it starts showing signs of personalized advertising.