NEWS

Weapon mod restrictions?

  • 40 Replies
  • 12640 Views

Malevolence

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Matrix Addict
« Reply #15 on: <08-28-14/2129:30> »

Watch the ad hominem.  I haven't belittled anyone; I responded specifically to DeathStrobe's statement that the system is too vague and that it is impossible to know what goes where.  To state I said otherwise is to state a falsehood.
Honestly, this sort of question and need for an item-by-item ruling has to me always smacked of desperate munchkinism, or a dramatic failure of critical facilities.
So accusing someone of being a munchkin or of having no critical faculty is a compliment then? I think I should go around and be polite to more people that disagree with me then!

Also, the inability to consider things from another's point of view, thus discrediting their individuality (which is exactly the case when assuming that everybody knows everything just because you do) is a pathological condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism#Psychology_and_psychiatry - among the kinder interpretations of the viewpoint).  I'm not a psychologist, so I hedged my comment as stating that it is only possibly so, not definitively so. Further, the comment only applies if you honestly do believe that things that are obvious to you should be universally obvious, a position I honestly hope you do not intend to defend.

So, tell me again who is making unwarranted personal attacks?
Speech Thought Matrix/Text Astral

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #16 on: <08-28-14/2207:57> »
I don't recall saying 'purvue is a munchkin, and has a critical failure of reasoning'.  I don't even recall you being involved in the conversation at that point.  Any personal attack you see me making is a matter of your viewpoint.  As for stepping it up ... I'll let Fastjack handle you.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Malevolence

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Matrix Addict
« Reply #17 on: <08-28-14/2233:57> »
I don't recall saying 'purvue is a munchkin, and has a critical failure of reasoning'.  I don't even recall you being involved in the conversation at that point. 

You are right, you hadn't attacked me personally. But I was involved in the conversation as an observer. And I should hope, that despite what you intimate, that there is room on these boards for decent people that choose to act to enforce common decency and good behavior by calling out when posters misstep. If that is not the case, please let me know now, because that way lies flame wars, and I want no part of it.

Any personal attack you see me making is a matter of your viewpoint.  As for stepping it up ... I'll let Fastjack handle you.
As I said before, I was unaware that munchkin was a term of endearment nor that a critical failure of reasoning was a lofty goal to be pursued by all. Totally my mistake, and I apologize for for mistaking your gushing praise of the OP as anything but wholly positive in intent.

"Stepping it up?" Persecution complex much? You were rude and needlessly aggressive and I called you on it. If that is something that Fastjack is supposed to be discouraging, then he won't have to "handle" me, I'll be happy to leave the community altogether on my own. However, I suspect he is much more likely to caution us both to play nice and stay on topic, which at this point is good advice.

As a long time poster here, I would have hoped you would have simply acknowledged your poor behavior once it was pointed out and made some conciliatory gesture, but since that is unlikely to happen, I'm happy to simply drop the matter and save further wasted time and (Internet) breath.
Speech Thought Matrix/Text Astral

subgenius

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 58
« Reply #18 on: <08-28-14/2349:16> »
How about we set the pop psychology aside and get back to the topic? You're not making yourself look any better by keeping up the attacks purvue.

Anyway, as the rules stand now I think it's clear that some personal interpretation is needed. Not that this is an unworkable situation... It just takes some thought on the part of the player and GM for the corner cases (like does the integrated gas vent on some guns preclude a silencer/supressor).

As has been asked many times, how about some real example quesitons? Otherwise this thread is little more than a theoretical mess.

DeathStrobe

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 888
  • Front Range Free Decker
« Reply #19 on: <08-29-14/0049:00> »
Examples of where the rules fall apart.

The Foregrip says it uses the barrel slot and provides 1RC and increases the concealment by 1 and costs 100¥

In comparison the Gas Vent rating 1 offers 1RC uses the barrel slot and costs 200¥.

So is that logical? What's worse is that the Foregrip doesn't stack with any underbarrel RC accessories while the Gas Vent stacks with all of them. Basically, there is no point where you'd ever want to use a Foregrip, especially because barrel mods seem to be permanent.

How about the Ingram Smartgun X? It has a built in silencer and gas vent system 2. Does that mean you can put another barrel accessory on it? Maybe a Gas Vent System 3 or a Foregrip? The description says the silencer is integral. Does that mean the silencer is using up the integral slot of the gun, so it can't have a smartgun system in there, and if that's the case, where is the Ingram's smartgun system? Top mounted? Or since this was before the integral slot was defined, does that mean it just gets the silencer for free somehow and break the normal rules of gun modding?

There are too many odd ball guns that contradict the gun modding rules.

subgenius

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 58
« Reply #20 on: <08-29-14/0058:57> »
Or you could just look at the picture of the Ingram...

I get that the rules aren't perfect, and I totally agree that the foregrip makes no sense, I'd house rule that to an undermounted accessory in a heartbeat, but we're really splitting hairs in what otherwise is a fairly simple part of the rules (even if it requires us to fill in the blanks more than should be required).

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #21 on: <08-29-14/0102:42> »
Common sense is the rule of the day.  When in doubt, there are the specific restrictions that Martin pointed out.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

BetaCAV

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
  • 2-legged devil rat
« Reply #22 on: <08-29-14/0236:22> »
So, bringing up side-mounted (or top-, for the minguns, et al) foregrips, and combination laser-flashlight-foregrips, probably isn't going to help... but since many of the guns preceded the "rules" for constructing/modding them, there are naturally going to be some... artifacts. Much like the sample characters, which were probably stat-blocked before chargen was finalized (I'm guessing). Probably also why spell creation isn't in Street Grimoire.

Maybe there'll be a Shadowcraft book, that not only includes spell creation, but vehicle mods/construction, etc. (hint hint, nudge nudge).

On the other hand, it counters the stat escalation that normally accompanies later books, if the legacy guns can't be recreated completely with the new system. I'm willing to let it lie and call it good, though I'm sure it will continue to vex those with CDO (it's like OCD, but in alphabetical order, like it SHOULD be!).

FastJack

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6374
  • Kids these days...
« Reply #23 on: <08-29-14/0758:05> »
Please play nice on these forums. Even if you disagree with someone, there is no reason to personally attack them.

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #24 on: <08-29-14/0808:34> »
DeathStrobe
Given the rules on what acessories are allowed on what guns I'm almost confident that the Foregrip is a barrel mount accessory because SMGs (one of the most common weapons in the modern world to feature this type of accessory, along with assault rifles) can't take underbarrel mods. Simple as that. It would have been nice if the devs had included a single line that said something like "This accessory can be combined with other barrel mounts such as gas-vent systems and silencers" but alas no such luck.

As for the whole integral gas-vent system and silencer thing, as well as the "can I put multiple accessories/modifications of the same type" on a weapon? Pretty sure the answer to those questions have been provided by Aaron, and that they are "You need to choose" and "No", respectively.

Malevolence

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Matrix Addict
« Reply #25 on: <08-29-14/1351:22> »
As has been asked many times, how about some real example quesitons? Otherwise this thread is little more than a theoretical mess.
Considering the way he was treated, I would not be surprised if he has abandoned the thread, if not the forums altogether.
Speech Thought Matrix/Text Astral

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #26 on: <08-29-14/2354:07> »
Seriously, you're gonna continue even after being warned, purvue?  There was no frickin' attack.  csbrademeyer essentially admitted to trying to break the game.  Everyone else here agrees that the only one attacking anyone here is you.  Lay off it, already.



A lot of what is in the game that appears to be conflicting - gas-vent and sound suppressor / silencer combinations, that sort of thing - are pieces of legacy gear.  DeathStrobe, BetaCAV, understand that 4e (and thus 5e) rolled back the crunch on gear design, and because of that a lot of the picky options are flat-out gone.  Even then, though, getting a system that combined gas-vent with sound suppression required building the weapon from the ground up, essentially designing it that way.  In SR5 terms, however, you can explain such 'you can't do that by the modification rules' items as being a matter of proprietary technology that little nanobots chew apart if you try to probe them, that sort of thing.  "When we try to open it, or even x-ray it, it stops working and turns into goo."

SR4 and SR5 require a much more casual attitude towards 'how things work'; handwavium is in much greater supply, in order to increase the level of 'get on with the game already'.  As a consequence, you wind up running into confusion of what works with what, doesn't work with what, and why the Ingram-Z has a Wotcher and a Whosit when it's obvious you can't actually have a Wotcher and a Whosit on the same weapon according to the rules.

"Because it does; let's move on."  That winds up being the reason given, and appears to be the intention.  I don't say it's bad; I prefer more crunchiness, because I like having a slimline MAD-invisible combat-reinforced pistol with smartlink, improved rangefinder, kickass damage, and yadda yadda that uses ammo that costs three times as much as 'normal invisible-to-MAD' ammo does, which weapon costs ten times as much as any other pistol in the game, is thirty times as difficult to get your hands on in-game, but which to me is worth a hundred times as much, both in story and in personal satisfaction, because it's My Unique Kick-Ass Gun, Fear It In My Hands, Ye Mighty, And Despair.

If you want the crunchy, my advice is still - and will pretty much always be - to go back to the 3E Cannon Companion, look at how weapons are built or modified, and figure out what works and how much it's going to cost.  Because it will cost a boatload.  You'll fork over for an SMG what you could use to buy an entire reconfigurable weapon system - pretty much just so you can say, "Yeah, I got this sweet supercalifragilisticexpialidocious-special gun.  Ain't it cool to be me?"

And that is part of my rule of cool.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

DeathStrobe

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 888
  • Front Range Free Decker
« Reply #27 on: <08-30-14/0051:48> »
I'm basically agreeing and saying you need to do a lot of handwavium to get a lot of the guns to work, because the rules for gun modding don't quite jive. The Ingram is the most obvious example, but there are handful of guns that just don't make sense when you try to mod them using RAW and RAI isn't very clear either.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #28 on: <08-30-14/0211:46> »
Yeah.  As I said - go back to SR3 for your crunch, and pull it forward.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Medicineman

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2310
« Reply #29 on: <08-30-14/0256:01> »
Yeah.  As I said - go back to SR3 for your crunch, and pull it forward.

Why SR3 ?
Why not SR4A ?!! They had the same Rules and lots of mods for Weapons. Converting them to SR5 is  easy peasy

with an easy-peasy Dance
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8