[staxu]

I'm trying to build a melee specialist troll, which I thought would be easy but is giving me some trouble with the SR5 priority system and I just can't seem to figure out the system enough, so I thought I'd ask for some design help.

The main goal is to deal obscene amounts of damage in close combat, with survival a second priority.
I imagine he would use throwing knives as a ranged option as they deal high damage with enough strength.

I wanted originally to build him as a bioadept but was having trouble getting that to work (wanted to have strength of 11 via exceptional attribute, then 14 with used muscle augmentation 3)

So, how would you guys build a troll who wanted to swing monstrous damage with a combat axe, have it connect, and not die in the process?

[reyjinn]

Old character of mine that fits that description pretty well, you could use him as a starting point at least. Unfortunately I can't comment on how viable he actually is because the PbP he was supposed to be a part of never took of.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12924.msg238572#msg238572

[ve4grm]

For priorities:

First off, either priority A of B will be dedicated to Metatype. (Personally, I like A, as 6 Edge is really, really nice.)

Your second priority, when going to as much damage as possible, should be attributes. You'll need to boost up Agility, Strength, and Reaction (more initiative passes = more damage), plus maybe intuition. So Attributes B.

Since you're focusing so narrowly, and don't care about other stuff, your skills can suffer. So decide whether you want to be augmented or magical, and pick either Magic C (Adept) or Resources C. If you take Magic C, you can spend a couple of those Edge points from metatype boosting your magic to 6.

Skills D will give you enough for full blades, throwing weapons, and a couple others, and either Magic or Resources E should be fine, depending on which way you went.

The priority system can be weird, admittedly.

Realize that this character will be heavily min-maxed, and all but useless outside of his chosen role. But in that role, he will absolutely crush people.

[reyjinn]

In my personal opinion if you need to select between skillsD+cashE or skillsE+cashD, always go with the latter. Trading 4 skill points for 44000 NY is always worth it in my mind. Can add a bunch of 1-2 lvl skills with karma to make up the skill points if needed/wanted.

[ve4grm]

In my personal opinion if you need to select between skillsD+cashE or skillsE+cashD, always go with the latter. Trading 4 skill points for 44000 NY is always worth it in my mind. Can add a bunch of 1-2 lvl skills with karma to make up the skill points if needed/wanted.

Fair point. So for the Adept route, swap my Skills and Resources suggestions.

[staxu]

Is making the troll utilize bioware and adept powers at all worth the headache?  It seems bioware is the only real viable way to up his strength beyond 11, but being an adept gives him access to more dice, easier initiative enhancement, the extra acuracy power, and weapon focus (more dice, spirit-killing.)

11 strength is 16p -4ap
14 strength is 19p -4ap, which looks a lot more likely to 1-shot someone.

If he needs 2 hits to take someone out there's very little reason to spec heavily into damage as I imagine a more accurate katana troll would still 2 shot people without needing nearly as many of your character building resources.

So, thoughts on bioadept viability, axe vs katana, and aiming for a one-hit kill?

[martinchaen]

Having played the axe wielding troll, I can tell you that the accuracy hurts, no doubt about it. There's only so much edge, and competent opponents, particularly adepts, will dodge your attacks left and right.

I would go with the katana, personally, but I'd also look at some of the R&G weapons.

Adept vs ware? Depends on preference if you ask me; both are perfectly viable, and both have aspects that make them unique.

Personally I prefer ware, but not because of any game mechanical advantage, just cause I like the transhumanist idea. Go with your gut on that one, I'd say.

As for one hit kills, look into martial arts. Iaijutsu and Finishing Move can be deadly.

[reyjinn]

Perhaps Burnout Way is something for you to consider for your character. Perhaps with an ABDEC priority array.

[rayous]

For low accuracy weapons adepts are the way to go. Adepts can take the Attune Item ritual which increases "the relevant limit of the item by the initiate grade of the adept using it."(Street Grimoire pg 124). The attuned item's limit increase can stack with the adept's enhanced accuracy power so thats even more accuracy. If you want to have a weapon foci axe then you go with the Imbue item ritual (street grimoire 133) and the Alliance trait.

[staxu]

I wasn't so much asking about cyber vs adept as asking if mixing augmentation and adept powers would work out to the benefit of a melee troll.

For instance taking used muscle augmentation 3 as an adept, or moving to a one-handed sword and getting a used cyberarm of awesome (although I'm having trouble figuring out how those rules even work)

It might even be possible to do 2 awesome cyberarms and keep the axe, but that's even more confusing rules-wise.

Let's say this character has exceptional attribute:strength.   Does this let them rock an agility 8 (5 customization +3 enhancement) strength 14 (11 custimization, +3 enhancement) used cyberarm?
With a base agility of 2 and strength of 5, what happens when he swings a one-handed sword with that cyberarm?  A combat axe using that cyberarm and a natural one?  What about the combat axe with 2 such arms?


If you take adept at a low priority and burn all your magic away with cyberware, can you purchase magic from 0-1 with karma and be able to use a weapon focus and grab some powers?   If you spend less than 4 essence and have magic 2 from adept, does that essence loss lower your magic, or would it only start to lower your magic of 2 once you reach 4 essence spent?

[reyjinn]

No, you lose the magic with your first loss of essense. Lose 0.001 ESS and you lose 1 magic rating and your max potential magic also drops from 6 to 5. Lose 1.001-2 and you lose 2 magic plus your max potential is now at 4. Etc.

[martinchaen]

Mixing augments with magic is certainly viable, but does require some jockeying around in terms of priorities. It's doubly hard to do as a Troll since you'll need high priorities for metatype, and depending on whether you want to go high magic or high augmentations either a high priority in magic or resources, which leaves skills and resources.

I'd personally focus on one or the other; trying to do both usually leads down a highly specialized path, which for trolls usually means they're a sledgehammer in combat, but not much else. If that fits the game you're playing; great. If it doesn't, you might be bored out of your skull.

I'd say stay away from cyberlimbs, at least until you've clarified questions like the above with your GM, simply because there's so much ambiguity surrounding them that they just aren't worth the investment cost to my mind.

Also, I'd pick blades over axes because you'll be better suited in the future. Once you're in game you can obtain the Claymore (+1 Acc and AP compared to the combat axe with the same DV) and Victorinox Memory Blades, meaning you'll never be without a sword ever again. Just a personal preference is all.

[ZeConster]

If you take adept at a low priority and burn all your magic away with cyberware, can you purchase magic from 0-1 with karma and be able to use a weapon focus and grab some powers?   If you spend less than 4 essence and have magic 2 from adept, does that essence loss lower your magic, or would it only start to lower your magic of 2 once you reach 4 essence spent?

With the rules as written, there's a potential loophole in starting with Magic 2, losing 4 Magic by losing 3.001 - 4 Essence due to 'ware, then buying your Magic up from 0 to 2 for 5+10 = 15 Karma (either in Step Seven - which is the loophole - or post-chargen). It's a bit of a hit-or-miss situation, though, since you won't have a lot of Power Points.

[martinchaen]

It's also a GM dependent loophole. I would personally phonebook anyone trying that shit at my table.

[staxu]

Okay, here is the build I ended up going with, feel free to add any suggestions.

Priority:
A) Troll
B) Attributes
C) Resources
D) Adept
E) Skills

Body: 5
Agility 4(5)
Reaction 5(8)
Strength 11(15)
Willpower 3
Logic 2
Intuition 4
Charisma 2

Edge 2
Magic 6 (5)
Essence 5

Qualities:  Exceptional Attribute: Strength  (14 points)
Allergy (Severe, Uncommon) Gold (-15 points)

Skills:
Blades 6 [swords 8]
etiquette 1
Perception 1
sneaking 3
Throwing weapons 5 (Blades 7)

Knowledge skills: 12 points

Magic:
5 power points
Critical Strike (Blades) .5 points
Improved Physical Attribute (Strength) 1 point
Improved Reflexes 3    3.5 points

Augmentation:
Used Muscle Augmentation 3   .75 essence       69,750 nuyen
Used Muscle toner 1                   .25 essence       24,000 nuyen

Weapons:
Katana (Level 3 weapon focus)     16 dice, 19P, -3AP, accuracy 7, reach 2(trollolol)   22,000 nuyen
10 throwing knives  12 dice, physical limit of something ridiculously high, 16p damage, -1ap, 250 nuyen
combat knife    11 dice, 18P, -3AP, accuracy 6, reach 1,  300 nuyen

5 smoke grenades (10 dice) 200 nuyen

Armor:  Armor Jacket 12 armor , fire resistance 6, non-conductivity 6, 4,000 nuyen
1 from trollskin


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