[Reaver]

SINs are stored in regional SIN databases and combine a LOT of info on you. (DNA profile, date of birth to the exact minute, place of birth, sex, race, nationality,) and are constantly updated as life goes on. (Employment history, educational background, bank accounts, tax records, etc)

And all this is stored in what is effectively an ultraviolet node. Which means, your chances of hacking it are slim... thing about your modern day driver's license.  There is a number on it, and if you happen to know your number and not have your license,  you can give the cop the number, and he can pull up additional info to ask you to verify that you are you...

Same thing with a SIN. You have the number displayed by your commlink, and for trips on the bus, or the stuffershack that is good enough.  Try to by that new commlink for $1000 and they might make sure you resemble the SIN info. ("Lets see... human, blonde, blue eyes, male, in his 30s... yep.") Try to by that $20,000 americar and they might require a biometric scan. ("And yo complete the purchase Mr. Jones, just put your eye up to the scanner. Thank you")
But to get that really wiz piece of gear? DNA sample might be needed...

[Namikaze]

The confusion here is between the idea of a SIN on your commlink, and a SIN in the registry.  As far as I can tell, the distinction is that the SIN on your commlink is like having a Social Security card.  You might give that card to someone to get a job, but that employer has no idea if it's real or fake until it gets verified by the database.  I think if you want to have a fake SIN that passes any kind of checks, it requires a lot of work (Rating 2+).  But if you wanted to get a piece of data that can be a SIN up until the moment someone looks at it, you can do that too (Rating 1).  Unfortunately, all of this is riddled with "I think", "my opinion", and "as far as I can tell."  None of it is extremely clear, and probably won't be until we get Data Trails or (maybe) Run Faster.

[Reaver]

Very true Namikaze.

However in the 25+ years of SR and SINs they have always left it very nebulous.... and basically stated that runners can't make SINs as it takes specialized contacts and resources that only the largest/specialized criminal syndicates have access to...

[Triskavanski]

However, in the event of a quick hiest of one, Sure you might end up having it burned rather quickly. But it will take at least some time for them to sort through the mess of having the police guy broadcasting a bad Sin and you broadcasting the police SIN.

Cause you are carrying a perfectly 100% legal sin card now, usually. Even if you don't match the data on it normally. Safe trigger devices aren't really going to able to shoot you that easy, because you're broadcasting a SIN that they were programmed not to be able to shoot while the officer now isn't.

[martinchaen]

At my table that wouldn't fly. Otherwise, there'd be punk kids, gang bangers, con men, and various other criminals pulling stunts like this all the freakin' time.

And if a GM allows it, just remember it can come back to bite you. I for one wouldn't want my bulletproof Rating 6 SIN punked by some kid with a deck, landing me in federal custody for the night for seemingly being someone I'm not.

That way, as the saying goes, lies insanity.

[Reaver]

Yea... I somehow doubt getting a SIN off a commlink is as simple as hacking in and taking a file. If it was, then even cheap fake SINs wouldn't cost you $1000.... or you wouldn't bother paying it as you could just 'grab' one from the wageslave you pass on the street.

And remember, that 'safe target' system is a lot smarter then you are giving it credit for. You grabbing a SIN from a human KE officer isn't going to help your Ork decker any as the targeting system still reads you as a male Ork flashing a female human cop ID... at best it just adds 'identity theft' to the list of crimes for which it is targeting you for.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Swiping their repeater information, sure, I'd allow that.  For about, oh, 30m, tops before the system double-checks get it corrected.  And you'd have to get it just right otherwise it's a 'Rating -1' Fake SIN - call it Threshold 4.

While Namikaze and Reaver are right - it's very, very complicated, requiring in-depth background planting, computer scams, yadda yadda that people basically do for a living - completely screwing with another person's SIN besides managing to get it flagged as them being dead (which is a relatively easy thing to correct) is so difficult to do, erasing it completely pops up as something only ever being done within the Last Will and Testament of a certain Great Dragon.

Suggests to me that it takes a lot of resources to make happen ...

[Reaver]

Swiping their repeater information, sure, I'd allow that.  For about, oh, 30m, tops before the system double-checks get it corrected.  And you'd have to get it just right otherwise it's a 'Rating -1' Fake SIN - call it Threshold 4.

While Namikaze and Reaver are right - it's very, very complicated, requiring in-depth background planting, computer scams, yadda yadda that people basically do for a living - completely screwing with another person's SIN besides managing to get it flagged as them being dead (which is a relatively easy thing to correct) is so difficult to do, erasing it completely pops up as something only ever being done within the Last Will and Testament of a certain Great Dragon.

Suggests to me that it takes a lot of resources to make happen ...

Even then, wasn't it for "a year and a day"?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Seven or ten days, I think.  The Will was very specific about the time-span.  If he a) survived, and b) could prove he was himself, he got his life back.  To the person who killed him, though, went a million nuyen 'for a job well done', as I recall.  They might have received the guy's assets as well, but I'm a bit fuzzier on that one.

[Southpaw]

Do you think a fake SIN is acquired by lifting (and possibly modifying) a dead person's SIN, or by constructing a SIN from an empty template and sneaking the SIN's biometrics into the database?

[Reaver]

Do you think a fake SIN is acquired by lifting (and possibly modifying) a dead person's SIN, or by constructing a SIN from an empty template and sneaking the SIN's biometrics into the database?

We don't really know as (as always) the info on fake SINs is vague. For the low end ones, I would imagine they are copies of legit SINs and it is the fact that you don't match the info well as the reason they are so cheap. ("I got a SIN for an African American troll here... yea I know you're an ork and Caucasian... tell ya what, give me a grand and its yours. .")

For a rating 6 SIN the info on the DIN matches you almost perfectly, which probably means it was built custom made for you with your biometrics, and only the details are a little off... hence why they are so expensive, but pass muster on all but the heaviest of checks. (Like when you are being arrested, or hit with additional screening at a border crossing...)

[Triskavanski]

I'd have to say there is something more to Fake SINs than meets the eye. IF you buy a high level fake sin for example, you don't get any of the SINer qualities after all, nor do you get Criminal SIN if it becomes tied to a criminal activity.

Possibly a self-destruct code or something letting you dispose of it?

[Novocrane]

While we're on the topic of SINs and biometrics - how easy is it to get someone's biometrics from their SIN? Is it possible to just send that data straight to retinal / palm-print / other biometric duplication 'ware from your current (or stolen) SIN?

[Reaver]

While we're on the topic of SINs and biometrics - how easy is it to get someone's biometrics from their SIN? Is it possible to just send that data straight to retinal / palm-print / other biometric duplication 'ware from your current (or stolen) SIN?

As far as we know, no. The SIN is a alpha-numeric code made up of a lot of factors then just your biometrics.  They also say it is heavily encrypted.  So what you pull off a commlink isn't just biometric data.

At the same time, depending on the device, it might not csre sbout your SIN at all. A retina scanner in a corp lab might be trying to match your retina to one on file and not your SIN. While the bio-metric reader at the dealership is checking your retina VS what is on file at the SIN registration office...

[Hibiki54]

In SR5, I make sure I get at least 4 different SINs, sometimes even 5.

On my home campaign character, I have my national SIN for my lifestyle and mundane needs along with licenses for piloting, drone ownership, drone repair and drone operation in certain areas. I then have a Fake SIN 6 and rating 4 licenses that is a carbon copy of a real life by under a different alias. I use this for when I'm on a team in the city. Then I have a couple Fake SIN 4s for purchases and leg work and a Fake SIN 2 for when I need to lay low or need an identity to burn.

For missions, I just have a rating 6 Fake SIN for my lifestyle and two rating 3 SINs for shadowrunning.