[Xenon]

Run n gun let you call shot to specific body parts?
(dont have book)

The normal Called Shot Vitals, does not...

[Kincaid]

Run n gun let you call shot to specific body parts?
(dont have book)

The normal Called Shot Vitals, does not...

It does, but not in an effort to bypass armor--bypassing armor is a separate, optional rule that still using your total armor as an abstraction.

Most called shots to specific body parts actually make it very clear you aren't hitting soft spots to do tons of damage ("This is not a shot through one ear and out the other," "This is not a bullet in the eye straight into the brainpain"), but rather you're hitting/grazing those areas to incur various secondary effects.  The only called shots with high DV caps are neck, sternum, and gut, but again, none of these shots actually get around armor.

[Triskavanski]

You mean where it does nothing until  someone decides that "hey, I'm gonna shoot that guys legs." basically? Cause either its

1) completely useless, as no one attacks the legs. Except that one off chance
2) absolutely needed as everyone (Or a good sum of them) is (are) attacking the legs.

Or they're fighting snakes or other low or belly crawl enemies.

Which, you know, is the point of the socks 

Actually, the socks do not specify that it provides any bonuses against snakes in the crunch of the item. Besides that, they would have to go through your entire armor value. Including your helmet and arm guards. And metal bones.

[JackVII]

It does, but not in an effort to bypass armor-

Except when it does. For instance, check out the rules for Blowguns. You specifically have to make a called shot to an unarmored area in order for the attack to succeed. Based on the rules, it looks like there isn't any kind of damage resistance test other than the resistance to whatever poison is being delivered. Which is weird as, if there isn't a damage resistance test to the blowgun needle, you could theoretically kill someone with the needle itself on an incredible roll. Anyway, why someone can make a called shot with a blowgun to avoid armor but can't really do the same with a gun remains a mystery (well, not really, its clearly a balance thing).

WRT the socks, I don't really care that the crunch doesn't mention snakes. The item name and the fluff give a pretty clear indication of the purpose of the socks. I think any rational reading of the item is going to come up with RAI being that the +2 bonus only applies to called shots given the pricing and general lack of penalties associated with them (particularly in comparison to the Securetech PPP leg kit). Now, if the intent is to try to wheedle out bonuses in the name of optimization, I guess that's an entirely different exercise.

[Kincaid]

It's bizarre to me that blowguns use different rules than dart pistols to deliver their payload.

[JackVII]

It's bizarre to me that blowguns use different rules than dart pistols to deliver their payload.

No kidding. I don't know why they just didn't use the same rules...

[Triskavanski]

It does, but not in an effort to bypass armor-

Except when it does. For instance, check out the rules for Blowguns. You specifically have to make a called shot to an unarmored area in order for the attack to succeed. Based on the rules, it looks like there isn't any kind of damage resistance test other than the resistance to whatever poison is being delivered. Which is weird as, if there isn't a damage resistance test to the blowgun needle, you could theoretically kill someone with the needle itself on an incredible roll. Anyway, why someone can make a called shot with a blowgun to avoid armor but can't really do the same with a gun remains a mystery (well, not really, its clearly a balance thing).

WRT the socks, I don't really care that the crunch doesn't mention snakes. The item name and the fluff give a pretty clear indication of the purpose of the socks. I think any rational reading of the item is going to come up with RAI being that the +2 bonus only applies to called shots given the pricing and general lack of penalties associated with them (particularly in comparison to the Securetech PPP leg kit). Now, if the intent is to try to wheedle out bonuses in the name of optimization, I guess that's an entirely different exercise.

Really the socks should be compaired to the helmet. 50Y vs 100Y but the helmet has space for mods.

Securetech is designed to be on and off quickly. Thats where lots of its cost comes from. And remember social mod limits modifiers dont stack. Seeing is beleving so if you put it under, no negitives to socisl limit.

[Kincaid]

Except a helmet is much heavier and made from much more resilient materials.  If we're just looking at ballistic cloth +armor items, Second Skin and Forearm Guards would be much better comps.  I'd be willing to go with forearm guards being roughly equivalent to shin guards (see also: Secure Tech PPP--lose the capacity to go under the pants), but +2 is still too significant a bonus in my book.

[Cronstintein]

Also a helmet is super obvious.  Most runners I've seen are not wearing helmets everywhere.  There's no downside to the socks at all, so basically there's no reason every character wouldn't be wearing them.

[Triskavanski]

Except you don't know what composition snake mesh socks are. nor do you know the weight of them. Though we do know the length of them. And the approx size of a helmet. The Helm covers approx 1/2 of your skull or .5 head lengths. The human body is generally somewhere between 6-7 head lengths, with the lower legs being 1.5 head lengths.

So comparing the helmet to the socks, its 1.5 head lengths vs approx .5 head lengths. In terms of "no downside" There is quite a heavy down side to the socks, and that is capacity. Even if the socks are not super obvious or anything like that, you're spending 2 of your additional armor value for /just/ additional armor value. Now to you and all your players and such, they might not care at all about anything more than just having the highest armor value there is, and to them, they won't see a down side to spending their points on just increasing armor value.

Second skin provides Ruthenium Polymer Coating, and Two capacity in addition to adding the two points of armor
Forearm guards provide 1 armor and 3 more capacity.
Secure Tech PPP provide 1 armor, 1 capacity and are quickly interchangeable, even if they do provide a 1 point penalty to social limit. And there isn't anything there that says they loose the capacity to go under pants.
Helmet provides 2 armor and 6 capacity.
Mask provides 2 armor and 8 capacity and +1(2) increase to social limit for intimidation tests.
Socks provide 2 armor, and +2 armor on specific called shots to the legs.

[Kincaid]

It's probably safe to assume that whatever the socks are made of, it's not the rigid next-generation Kevlar that you find in MICH helmets because...well, they'd be pretty terrible socks if they couldn't flex.

Outside of forearm guards, what other +armor items are in the game that can be worn under any outfit?  That's the problem.  Forearm guards are generally an autopick item, but at least there's a certain degree of history for the item.  A glut of autopick items is bad design.  And yes, anyone remotely interested in socializing/not getting noticed (which should cover every Shadowrunner) will autopick the socks and switch to the helmet before driving to the CZ.

Second Skin only stacks with certain items and is much more expensive.  Moreover, it's all you can wear if you actually want its main benefit.

I was comparing the idea of a +1 armor/0 capacity shin guard to the PPP.  The PPP has capacity, so the trade-off is that it's visible.

[JackVII]

Secure Tech PPP provide 1 armor, 1 capacity and are quickly interchangeable, even if they do provide a 1 point penalty to social limit. And there isn't anything there that says they loose the capacity to go under pants.

Stop cherry-picking Trisk. Your argument that they are "quickly interchangeable" is based on the same fluff that says they aren't designed to be worn under clothing. You can't have one without the other. While there is a listing on how many actions it takes to don a piece of PPP, we don't have a listing for how quickly it takes to don many, if any, other piece of armor, so there's no telling if that is considered quick or not without the fluff text to back it up.

Your argument comparing the area covered by knee-length socks and the area covered by a helmet is pretty weak, IMO. If you're being shot at by someone with any level of actual firearms training (Skill Rating 1 or higher per the book), they're going to be shooting you center-mass if not making called shots. Your head is a lot closer to center-mass than your shins are... not to mention that if you do take cover to fire, your legs are often not going to be visible, but your head is.

At the end of the day, we don't know what the devs intended until they start answering questions. Maybe Gibraltar worked on that section and will weigh in at some point.

[JackVII]

As far as the fluff portion, it doesn't say they aren't designed to be worn under armor, it says they are designed to be worn over it. And some depends on the type of armor you're wearing.

But lets face it, if you're tucking your Argentum great coat into your knee pads though, you deserve to suffer a decrease to social limit.

I know, that's basically what I said in my post. PPP goes on the outside of everything. That's why it is incompatible with a lot of things. Amusingly, the list they provide isn't exactly very in-depth as it seems to specifically list a few armors from the BBB without addressing any of the new armor listed in the book in which it appears, presuming that full-body armor is Full Body-Armor and not just any armor that covers the body from neck to ankle.

[Triskavanski]

Being designed not to go under is a bit different from being designed to go over. A subtle difference but on still the same. Mind you, this tread is mostly about the gun cane and the mortimer london line. So if your tucking your coat into your kneepads, you deserve to have a -1 social limit modifier

The design of the ppp, by even the crunch block, is suppose to be fast interchangability. If the rules of equipping armor and the like do not exist, the design flaw exists there, not in the socks.

Removing the +2 ac from the socks, removes the only reason you'd not wear them, beyond any social effects a gm might throw at you. The most id do is lower it to a +1 normally. No less.  Otherwise it becomes free armor if ypur legs are hit or your gm rules snakes always attack legs and you have to face yhem

[JackVII]

It's not really a difference that makes a difference though. The point of the item description is that the armor is to be worn over everything else, which is why the vitals unit isn't compatible with an armor jacket or vest. So no, if you are going to wear the PPP leg kit, it has to go over everything else and cannot be worn under anything else, netting you a -1 to your social limit regardless of what clothing or armor you are wearing. Given that, when compared to socks that provide an additional point of armor with no social limit penalty and only cost 1/6th of the price, why would anyone choose the PPP kit? Now, if the socks only provided a bonus to called shots to the lower legs...

50 nuyen seems to be the right price for a piece of armor that provides a nice bonus to certain called shots and is imminently concealable. Will everyone buy them? Maybe... there's no real reason not to, but it also only provides a situational bonus. Although, I would point out that called shots to the lower legs are not a bad choice. Keeping someone from performing complex actions for net hits CTs is not a bad deal.