[Xenon]

What devices are inside a Host then?

Icons (not devices) inside a host are file icons, IC icons, persona icons, Mark icons, living persona icons, sprite icons, agent icons... etc

How does a spider who is inside a Host interact with the devices that are outside the Host  - does he have to leave the Host to do so?

A host have a direct connection to devices slaved to a host (devices that are being part of the WAN where the host is the master) so a security rigger will have direct connection (don't suffer noise penalties due to distance or working across different grid penalties) to all physical devices in the WAN as long as he access them from within the host they are slaved to. He is the spider in the middle of the web - having direct access to all security devices within a building at once.

The physical device and it's associated icon is out on the grid, but being slaved to a host create a "master-slave coupling" that give the host a direct access to the device and the device can use host ratings for defense. This also mean that if you attach a physical cable to the physical device and attack it that way or attack it through it's associated icon out on the grid you would also get a mark on the host when you get a mark on the slave.

At least that is how i understand it

The security rigger can not access a physical device that is not slaved to the host, or slaved to another host, unless he leave the host and visit the device on the grid where it have it's icon (or enter the other host that the device is slaved to)

[Razhul]

Just as a correction, I think you increased Overwatch Score for Matriz Perception which is a Data Processing action and thus does not increase OS.

[Lobo]

Ok - very good explanation, that seems pretty clear.

A couple of follow up questions - lets give a simple example:

A decker and his friend the samurai are outside a building, both in A/R.  The decker is unarmed, and the samurai has a gun.  The building has a Host, with a single security camera, and a coffee maker as the only two devices slaved to it.  In addition, there are 5 data files that are inside the Host, 3 normal employees, and one decker, all of whom are in A/R.  Assume, just for simplicity, no icons are running silent, and the decker is within 100 meters of both devices.

The decker is able to see:
The samurai's persona icon
The camera and coffee maker's icon.

He cannot see:
The icons of the files
Any of the employees persona.

The employees can see:
The icons of the files
The employees personas
Since they all have a mark on the host, they can also see the camera and the coffee maker since they are directly connected to them since they have a mark on the host.

They can't see the decker or the samurai, as they are outside the Host.

Now, assume the decker does a Hack on the fly to gain a mark on the Host.  He now enters the Host.  At this point, he now can see everything the employees can see, and is directly connected to the camera and the coffeemaker, and can no longer see the samurai.

Now, since he is foolishly not running silent, as soon as he enters the Host, he is now spotted by the employees.  Initiative is rolled, and now the spider goes first, and with his action performs an Erase Mark action and removes the mark the decker has on the Host.

At that point, he is still inside the Host, and can see the employees' personas and the files, but now since the icons for the camera and the coffee maker are outside the Host, and he is no longer directly connected to them because he no longer has a mark on the Host, does that mean they disappear from his view and he would have to leave the Host to interact with them?

[JackVII]

Now, since he is foolishly not running silent, as soon as he enters the Host, he is now spotted by the employees.  Initiative is rolled, and now the spider goes first, and with his action performs an Erase Mark action and removes the mark the decker has on the Host.

At that point, he is still inside the Host, and can see the employees' personas and the files, but now since the icons for the camera and the coffee maker are outside the Host, and he is no longer directly connected to them because he no longer has a mark on the Host, does that mean they disappear from his view and he would have to leave the Host to interact with them?

I thought the only requirement for direct connection was being inside of the host. I'm not entirely sure if erasing a mark would do anything other than disallowing the decker to re-enter the host. I don't have my books on me at the moment so I don't know for sure.

Also, just for funsies, can the Spider erase the mark since they are inside the host and thus technically unable to see the host icon? Or can they view the host icon from within the host?

[Lobo]

@JackVII

Interesting - I reread it, and you are right, it isn't that you have a Mark on the Host that lets you be directly connected to the icons slaved to the Host, it is if you are IN the Host.  So it looks like you are correct, erasing the mark of the decker on the Host wouldn't actually do anything, apart from if the decker left the Host, he would have to mark the Host again if he wanted to enter it.

[JackVII]

I think it would technically prevent you from exiting the host, but you should still be able to jack out, so I don't know if it is that relevant. You would lose any other MARKs you might have, but you're probably skirting close to Convergence with all the naughtiness you've been up to getting to that point.

[Xenon]

The decker entering the host have a valid mark (he basically checks out like a regular employee). The security decker might need a bit more to go on before he start tearing you a new one........

Devices being slaved to the host does not mean you can interact with them. You still need marks on the device to do that... but being inside the host and the device being slaved to the host mean you can force or trick marks on the device as if you were physically attached to it with a cable.

As for overwatch score and convergence. I don't think you generate overwatch score when doing attack and sleaze actions while inside a host (but since you used at least an attack or sleaze action to get inside the host in the first place you will have an overwatch score that will increase every 15 minutes - and when it hit 40 the demiGOD will come to the front door and inform the host who you are. The host will automatically get 3 marks).

[Lobo]

"The decker entering the host have a valid mark (he basically checks out like a regular employee). The security decker might need a bit more to go on before he start tearing you a new one........"

Agreed - I was just trying to speed the example along

"Devices being slaved to the host does not mean you can interact with them. You still need marks on the device to do that... but being inside the host and the device being slaved to the host mean you can force or trick marks on the device as if you were physically attached to it with a cable."

Correct - my point was that if he he is inside the Host, he cannot see the icons of any device outside the host unless they are slaved to the host - for example he can see the camera, but not his friend's commlink.
I agree if he wants to do anything to the camera, he still needs to get a mark on it.

"As for overwatch score and convergence. I don't think you generate overwatch score when doing attack and sleaze actions while inside a host (but since you used at least an attack or sleaze action to get inside the host in the first place you will have an overwatch score that will increase every 15 minutes - and when it hit 40 the demiGOD will come to the front door and inform the host who you are. The host will automatically get 3 marks)."

Ok, I can see why you would say that given the following quote (notice the bold)

GOD doesn’t track personas inside a host, but it still
keeps tabs on the traffic to and from the host. This
means your Overwatch Score doesn’t change when
you enter a host, and it continues to accumulate while
you’re in the host. If you’re in a host when you reach
convergence, you’re not burned and dumped like you
are out on the grid (Overwatch Score and Convergence,
p. 231). Instead, the host gets three marks on
you and starts deploying IC.

However what I think that means is that if you have an OS of 10 when you enter the Host, it doesn't reset, you still have a 10 - ie.it doesn't change when  you enter it.  If you then perform an attack action and the host scores 4 hits, your OS does increase to 14.

[Xenon]

Yeah... I see what you mean (the rules are also not really crystal clear)

I don't think it keep track on your doings while inside the host. The demiGOD simply does not have jurisdiction inside the host and can't really see what flaws and traces you leave behind while inside the host (...GOD doesn’t track personas inside a host...) but it does not lose track of you just because you enter a host (... but it still keeps tabs on the traffic to and from the host. This means your Overwatch Score doesn’t change when you enter a host...)

And it work with the clues it have to work with (you breaking into the host) and every 15 minutes he increase your overwatch score with another 2D6, getting closer and closer (...and it continues to accumulate while you’re in the host...). Eventually he will find out who you are and come knocking at the door. As he does not have jurisdiction inside the host he can not convergence at you, but since he now know for sure you are inside the host he can now tell the host of it's findings (...Instead, the host gets three marks on you and starts deploying IC...).

If you are foolish enough to exit the host (instead of jacking out) then you are free bait and you will be burned and dumped.

[Razhul]

I am fairly certain that "continues to accumulate" means through all means, not just over time. Any sleaze or attack action, inside or outside a host causes the built-in matrix protocols to revolt against you and increase your overwatch score. It would be quite a haven if you can go nuts inside hosts for over an hour (!) without your OS going up.

[Lobo]

Yeah - I'm really torn - I can completely see what you are saying as well.  I agree it could have been clearer

Not sure how I'll play it, my only gripe about it means that if you jack out, jack in, go to a Host, hack on the fly and go in, you've probably got something on the order of 75 minutes before GOD finds you, and I'm not sure that this is an actual limiting factor.

(Figuring the Host gets5-7 successes against your hack on the fly, and then GOD rolls on average 7 every 15 minutes).

[Crunch]

The Host may have something to say about that though...

[Xenon]

I understand the concept that the more rules you bend and break the faster GOD will find you
- and I agree that it make more sense that OS keep raising if you do bad things inside a host.


I just can't get my head around what they mean with this line:
"...GOD doesn’t track personas inside a host..."


I mean... How does bending and breaking rules inside a host let it find you faster when it only operate out on the grid, never track personas inside a host and is not even allowed to enter the host (you can't even see or interact with an icon inside a host while you are out on the grid... how does it "know" i did bad things in there)

[Razhul]

My interpretation is that:
1) GOD is an entity
2) OS is an phenomenon, a feature built into the Matrix, independent of GOD
3) GOD not "tracking" is meant literally as in, they will not follow you into a host, not that they don't still take an interest on what you do in the host

There is a section about how all the entities (GOD, SemiGOD, security etc.) all work tightly together which furthers my assertion that the Matrix will still keep revolting about your Obscene Acts of Awesome Hacking(tm) by increasing your Overwatch Score. Who smacks you in the head for it will then be a result of where you are.

(US example) Imagine a Sheriff not following you into the next state but your WANTED level still increasing within the US (or the Globe).

[Xenon]

(US example) Imagine a Sheriff not following you into the next state but your WANTED level still increasing within the US (or the Globe).

Or that would be when you change grids. Crimes you commit on the grid are federal crimes and the the marshal in the next grid will take over and keep tracking you. But when you enter a host it would be more like entering another country. You are still WANTED in the US and once you re-enter US you be prosecuted for your crimes committed on the grid -but you will not also be prosecuted for your crimes committed overseas.

I might very well be wrong (in this case i probably am since it make more sense that you don't get a full hour of joy as long as you are inside a host - then again you risk getting burned and dumped by IC long before you reach 40 OS if you do bad things in a high security host), just don't see anything clear cut state that your overwatch score increase when using attack or sleaze inside a host.

GOD doesn’t track personas inside a host
- This mean it will not converge on you as long as you are inside the host.
- This might or might not also mean mean it no longer keep tabs on your illegal activities while inside the host(?)
but it still keeps tabs on the traffic to and from the host.
- It does not treat you as you jacked out.
- It still keep tracking you and get closer ever 15 minutes.
This means your Overwatch Score doesn’t change when you enter a host
- It does not treat you as you jacked out.
- It still keep tracking you and get closer ever 15 minutes.
and it continues to accumulate while you’re in the host
- It does not treat you as you jacked out.
- It still keep tracking you and get closer ever 15 minutes.
- This might or might not also mean it keep tabs on your illegal activities while inside the host(?)