Author Topic: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat  (Read 4152 times)

Sylvanes

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« on: November 07, 2010, 11:00:15 PM »
My group and I are about to begin a Shadowrun game and need some clarification on some of the rules dealing with astral projection.

1. A mage who is in astral form can only cast spells/attack on those who have astral forms as well, meaning that anyone who is not duel natured is immune to damage from the. Does that change when they manifest? Does manifesting allow a mage to target people in the physical world with spells and physical attacks?

2. Only mana spells, foci, and astral attacks can harm astral forms according to the books we have. Is there any other way that a mundane character can harm a astral projecting spirit or mage?

Answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

voydangel

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • 24 years and going strong -'-,-'- SR GM since 1990
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2010, 11:17:23 PM »
1. A mage who is in astral form can only cast spells/attack on those who have astral forms as well,
Yes.

meaning that anyone who is not duel natured is immune to damage from the mage.
Yes. An astrally projecting mage can only cast spells at targets that are astrally perceiving, projecting or dual natured. Aka: have an astral presence (not just an aura).

Does that change when they manifest? Does manifesting allow a mage to target people in the physical world with spells and physical attacks?
Yes, manifesting would then allow the mage to target physical world stuff.

2. Only mana spells, foci, and astral attacks can harm astral forms according to the books we have. Is there any other way that a mundane character can harm a astral projecting spirit or mage?
Attack of Will. Street Magic pg. 94

And please, if anyone else wants to agree or disagree or correct or affirm my answer, it would of course be welcomed. :)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 11:20:00 PM by voydangel »
My tips for new GM's
Unless it is coming from an official source, RAI = "Rules As Imagined."
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4++SR5+++h+b+++B+D382UBIE-RN---DSF-W+m+(o++)gm+MP

Medicineman

  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1441
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 01:48:55 AM »

Does that change when they manifest? Does manifesting allow a mage to target people in the physical world with spells and physical attacks?
Yes, manifesting would then allow the mage to target physical world stuff.


Heavens ,NO !!  :o
A manifested Mage is stil in the Astral Space and can NOT( !! ) affect the physical World.
only if he would materialise like a Spirit could he do anything ( Plane seperation !) but thats normally not possible !
Thats the big difference between manifestation (making yourself visible to the Mundanes) and materialisation (acting in and affecting the physical World)

with two different Dances
Medicineman
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:52:05 AM by Medicineman »

voydangel

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 524
  • 24 years and going strong -'-,-'- SR GM since 1990
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 01:53:09 AM »
Re-read the description, Medicine is right, apparently you can't interact via manifestation. Apparently I need more sleep (or something), looking back over that, I have no idea why I thought that... I knew the answer was no. /sigh  :P
My tips for new GM's
Unless it is coming from an official source, RAI = "Rules As Imagined."
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4++SR5+++h+b+++B+D382UBIE-RN---DSF-W+m+(o++)gm+MP

Medicineman

  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1441
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 02:03:42 AM »
MedicineMAN please :)
call it quirk but I like my name to be spelled out completely

with a full Dance
Medicineman

Chaemera

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 797
  • I may be a mouse, but I have a chainsaw.
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 06:37:35 AM »
2. Only mana spells, foci, and astral attacks can harm astral forms according to the books we have. Is there any other way that a mundane character can harm a astral projecting spirit or mage?
Attack of Will. Street Magic pg. 94

Arguably, "no". If you're talking about a materialized spirit, then yes, Attack of Will is applicable. However, if you are talking about, as the OP says an "astral[ly] projecting [...] mage" (A spirit doesn't "astrally project", they're native to the astral & already there), NO. Mundane characters and creatures have zero access to the astral plane, therefore they aren't on the astral plane to harm an astrally projecting mage (or non-materialized spirit).

Please note, that a materialized spirit is subject to damage from mundane attacks, if they can overcome the insane hardened armor (Force x 2) granted by Immunity to Normal Weapons. Stick-n'-Shock is probably your best bet (reduces that armor to Force, much more manageable) if you can't afford a flame-thrower. APDS is another expensive solution, but if you're just starting, spirits above Force 6 should be incredibly rare (and not fought), so AP -4 is close enough to AP -half.

Additionally, if that spirit is materialized, the mundanes can start wailing away with Attacks of Will (as voydangel suggested), but if they don't have some impressive Charisma or Willpower, they're better off with elemental normal weapons (-half is a good thing).
SR20A Limited Edition # 124
Obsidian Portal Profile: http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/chaemera

Sylvanes

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 08:21:52 AM »
Thank you for your help guys.

My group was under the impression that astrally projecting magicians who manifested would be able to use spells that would affect physical targets, but still be immune to all physical damage, which seemed kind of broken to me as being a mundane would mean that I would have had little choice but get wailed on by a invulnerable mage. But now we know.

Once again, thanks for the help.

Kat9

  • Guest
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 09:58:39 PM »
So to confirm, a mage astrally projects then manifests can or cannot target physical objects/non-astrally active (dual nature/perceiving) creatures?

Deadmansplat

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 11:13:26 PM »
Quote from: SR4Apg193
Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.  Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.  Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected, recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting beings are still subject to astral attacks.
So
Quote
In order to interact with the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
:o
Sounds like it could use a little adjustment there.
If it was:
Quote
In order to communicate with someone in the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
it would be clear.
Interacting with the physical plane without physically interacting with anything is just...
Another way to look at it, is:
Quote
In order to interact with the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
Therefore mana spells would be possible.

I can understand wanting to reign in the "only present astrally" mage, but then why not the "only present on the net" technomancer/hacker?

Mmurphy

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 11:24:53 PM »
So to confirm, a mage astrally projects then manifests can or cannot target physical objects/non-astrally active (dual nature/perceiving) creatures?

An astrally projecting mage can manifest.  While manifested, they may talk to and interact with living beings however they still are full astrally projecting and may not physically interact with the physical world but may interact with anything on the astral world.  they may talk to people, attempt to scare people or may make gestures and the people will see them. 

Spirits may manifest (see above) or materialize (act and effect the physical world) as they dwell in the astral world and must 'cross over' to interact with the physical world.

An astrally perceiving mage may affect both the physical and astral world, and be affected by either (and do so at physical world speed).

Kat9

  • Guest
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 11:29:09 PM »
Well I'm not looking to "reign in" anyone. It came up in the game tonight, I being the spell caster was told that I could cast spells at people on the physical plane. I, however, having followed Shadowrun since 1st edition was saying that you cannot, because since 1st edition you could not. I couldn't imagine that 4th edition could take a radically 180 degree turn from previous editions. However, I never expected Shadowrun to have "Magical matrix" and technowizards that summon sprites and cast threaded complex forms either.

However, given that things have changed that much I couldn't really be sure if Shadowrun had said, "Yeah, lets just forget about that, we'll brush it under the rug like the NAN."

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 11:31:09 PM »
Quote from: SR4Apg193
Manifesting
If a purely astral form such as a spirit or an astrally projecting magician wishes to interact with the physical plane, she must manifest.  Manifesting is a psychic effect that allows an astral form to make itself visible and audible on the physical plane through an act of will.  Manifesting takes a Simple Action to engage or disengage. Manifesting characters and spirits appear on the physical plane as ghostly, hazy images and may freely communicate with physical characters. Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 296), manifesting does not create a physical form, and so the character cannot physically interact with anything, nor can she be harmed by physical attacks. Because manifestation is a psychic effect, manifested characters cannot be detected, recorded, or affected by technological devices. Likewise, manifesting beings are still subject to astral attacks.
So
Quote
In order to interact with the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
:o
Sounds like it could use a little adjustment there.
If it was:
Quote
In order to communicate with someone in the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
it would be clear.
Interacting with the physical plane without physically interacting with anything is just...
Another way to look at it, is:
Quote
In order to interact with the physical plane one must manifest, however the character can not physically interact with anything.
Therefore mana spells would be possible.

I can understand wanting to reign in the "only present astrally" mage, but then why not the "only present on the net" technomancer/hacker?

A manifested Mage still can NOT target a mundane NPC (ie: guard, ganger) with a mana spell simply cause he is not the physical plane. He could lip them off, make rude hand signs, or scare the crap outta them, but he can harm them or any other object while manifested. He is in essence immaterial. And since a mundane is not linked to the astral world in a tangible way (auras are not tangible) the Mage has nothing to affect with his mana spell.

TMs and the matrix are a little different, if they are 'online' they can be attacked by other matrix entities (other TMs, hackers, programs,etc) if they are 'offline' they are safe. (just like a Mage in astral can be attacked by an astral entity, but are 'safe' if not projecting)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

UmaroVI

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 12:31:46 AM »
SR4A 183:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form
(though the auras
of  things  in  the  physical  world  can  be  seen,  auras  alone  cannot  be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magi-cian can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.

grimful

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 11:11:46 PM »
SR4A 183:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form
(though the auras
of  things  in  the  physical  world  can  be  seen,  auras  alone  cannot  be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magi-cian can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.

Ok question then can the mage who's astrally perceiving then attack another magician in astral space with a mana spell and if so, then can that astral mage attack him back with a spell or anything?

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2607
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
    • View Profile
Re: Astral Projection, Manifesting, Spells, and Combat
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 12:32:15 AM »
SR4A 183:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form
(though the auras
of  things  in  the  physical  world  can  be  seen,  auras  alone  cannot  be
targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magi-cian can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if
the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no
physical presence.

Ok question then can the mage who's astrally perceiving then attack another magician in astral space with a mana spell and if so, then can that astral mage attack him back with a spell or anything?

Yes and yes. Once the mage switches to Astral perception, his has turned himself into a dual natured "critter" for the length of his perception, thus is open to attack on his astral aura....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.