[grid_roamer]

Again this isn't the place for it, but you would need to spend a lot more time defining the term "free thinking body" to make that statement worth debating, and then spend a lot of time discussing why, historically, so few bodies have been benevolent but so much progress has been made.

Fair 'nuff 

[Silence]

It's typically not kosher to discuss contemporary (as opposed to fictional or historical) politics on the boards Silence, so I'll just say that neither the history of plutocracy nor the history of aristocracy supports the contention that corporations will necessarily make the world a better place.

And on that note, I'll drop that.  Either way, FASA did leave a lot of holes in their writing.

[Wakshaani]

Holes, sure, but they made a go of it, which was blazing new territory at the time. It upped everyone's game, and I tip my hat to the founding fathers of FASA for it.

In the modern NAN, you'll have seen a population boom as the people with a new country that had a lot of land and few people would get busy filling up that space. The actual numbers are unknown, but I think it safe to say that in the 60 years they've had plenty of time to more than double their population. (As a comparison, the US went from 132 million in 1940 to 281 million in 2000. It's safe to assume that the NAN population doubled, and probably more than that'd.)

As for magic, the UCAS isn't all that in terms of magical power. They'd love to be higher-rated, but the magical talents get scalped by the corps, leaving only teh dregs behind. There're plenty of folk who eyeball the smaller NAN population, the UCAS tech edge, and go, "They've never shown that kind of magical power again. It has to have been a ruse, or a one-time thing, right?" The higher-ups go, "But, what if it wasn't? We can't take that chance." Cooler heads prevail and, aside from the occasional border dustup, no real action has ever broken out. You'd best *believe* that they went over the tapes of the Tir attack on California later and went, "Huh, so *that's* how that works..." as they took notes.

Currently, they might think that they could win a wr, but they don't know how easy it would be and, as noted, it wouldn't be a one-on-one thing. Aztlan might get involved, the SSC and PCC certainly would, and nobody knows what the CAS would do. There're just too many variables to take back, what, Wyoming? Not worth the investment.

[Crunch]

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE FASA I still play both SR and BT and if I could find a group I'd dust off my Renegade Legion in a second. Hell there was a decade where I had 5 or 6 FASA games in regular rotation. But with numbers they tended to flub a bit.

[Nath]

Also the population of the UCAS is much lower due to VITAS and things like that.  In fact, the full world population has gone down due to that.  So having a lot of empty space and some ghost towns is something you will also see outside of the NAN.

Note that by 2063 and Shadows of North America, the population of the UCAS, at 172 millions, is greater than what it was circa 2010 IRL (about 160 millions, I didn't bother to do the math with each counties that ended up in North Virginia and North Missour and the bits of Manitoba and Saskatchewan). So there would have been a lot of empty space for much of the 21st century, but by the time we play Shadowrun, things would be back to what GM and players are used to IRL (except for ghost towns I guess, as they are more likely to remain as ghost towns even if when population increase again).

[Crimsondude]

2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless.

But economically open. See: the NEEC.

4) The CAS, Cal Free and the NAN ended up in posession of a dispraportionate amount of old US military hardware. 

The U.S. took all its toys when it left California. But the CAS is already heavily militarized and people from those states comprise the majority of the military.

Frankly, it makes more sense when you consider the politics of the writers.

Or that they were making a cyberpunk genre RPG. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So there would have been a lot of empty space for much of the 21st century, but by the time we play Shadowrun, things would be back to what GM and players are used to IRL (except for ghost towns I guess, as they are more likely to remain as ghost towns even if when population increase again).

Hell, the Redmond Barrens exist because of post-Crash flight.

[Silence]

I strongly suspect the population numbers are estimates, and are factoring in ork birth rates.

[MrSmiley]

2) The corporations prefer Nation States small and powerless.

But economically open. See: the NEEC.

Yep, I was just thinking economics. Set aside the military stuff for a second, since it's lost a bit of weight in a world really owned by megacorps who are all about profit; I have to wonder how well the NAN countries do economically. Just judging from anecdotal evidence in the Denver sourcebook, the NAN seem to be big on 'back to nature', with part of the provisions of the Treaty of Denver being that a good chunk of the city (basically, everything built after 1987) be bulldozed so that nature can flourish or some such. Makes sense for a group that basically just won a war owing to nature spirits.

But from an economic viewpoint, I can't help but wonder what the megacorps think of virtually the entire North American west outside of California (CFS) and Oregon (Tir Tairngire) adopting such a business-unfriendly policy. Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun, and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power. However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe those corporations would tolerate the American west being allowed to lapse back into wilderness because nature is good and cities are bad. 

Of course, I may be overstating how drastic those NAN policies are. Only source I have readily available, as mentioned above, is the Denver sourcebook.

[ZeConster]

I wasn't aware the corps were already all-powerful in 2018.

[Tzeentch]

But, as of real life 2013, there are only a few million native americans in the United States and Canada. The overwhelming bulk of the population of the western United States and Canada, in the vast majority of areas, is non-native american. Does this mean there were mass expulsions of whites and hispanics and blacks and so forth? Did the non-native populations remain but become second class citizens? Or do they remain and enjoy nominally equal rights despite being ruled by a tiny minority of the population?

-- Be aware there is a rather significant high-level difference in approach to the subject between Nigel Findley's Native American Nations and the later Shadows of North America. Particularly, in the old material it's made rather clear that most of the NAN population are 'racially' Amerinds (many full-blooded) and this probably the design intent as well. The population numbers were chosen out of a hat (maybe even literally). Rule of cool and worldbuilding was the goal, not alt-history extrapolation. So, in the old NAN books when they talk about Amerinds they mean no-drek genetic lineages, "blood purity" and all.

-- Enter SONA. Several of the authors (including myself) felt that the populations were problematic for a number of reasons, and that the NAN in general was a bit boring and one note. We took a look at the (then current) Amerind tribe sizes, ran some numbers for crazy population growth, and still didn't really like what we got. So the decision was made to rebalance populations. We hung our hats on an interesting statement in NAN2 that basically hinted that the populations were being misreported because the NAN weighted influence by national population. As it seemed unlikely the NAN countries were all conducting effective census canvasing this seemed plausible - so basically by 2062 the situation had become so farcical that the STC finally put its foot down and changed their system to fixed numbers of national reps, removing the need to report crazy numbers. That, and a healthy dose of "Well, how the hell does Danchekker know?"
-- The comment is in NAN2, p. 77:

> The Council tends to play fast and loose with its citizenship lists. I know for a fact that more than 10,000 dead people are still listed as citizens-in-good-standing. Why, pray tell?
> Prester John

> Probably some kind of political scam they're working on the NAN. Aren't some votes weighted by national population? If so, then the "brain drain" is also leeching away Athabasca's clout in the Sovereign Council.
> Golden Bear

> You got it, chummer.
> Willard

-- Note that "brain drain." Supposedly most of the NANs were losing young people hand over first to ..... somewhere not NAN. Findley didn't really flesh this out and was contradictory in places. Most of the NAN had ludicrously restricted immigration (still does in SONA) so new people weren't entering, supposedly tons were leaving ... and the Algonkian-Manitoo Council had 22.5 million people?

-- Hence the SONA population crunch, and the widening of the pool for potential Amerinds (basically, "one drop" citizenship status in most cases). This also helped explain the contradictory "Amerinds only" and "we love metahumans" material. So basically "Anglo" is a cultural perjorative now, and doesn't mean "white dude" since many of the NAN citizens are (and were) "white dudes."

-- That said, we all (imperial "we" I know there was some dissent) assumed that in the Shadowrun universe there were like an order-of-magnitude more Amerinds running around before Lone Eagle and all that. I don't believe that ever got communicated in the book, and frankly doesn't really matter. SONA also saw the end of the universally (minus Tsimshian/Aztlan) tree-hugging Danchekker whitewashing stuff.

If there were expulsions, I can only imagine that the vast majority of major cities in the area are now virtual ghost towns and the populations of the NAN countries are extremely low. If there weren't expulsions, then I can't imagine how the NAN countries function without basically having an apartheid situation, with native americans enjoying vast privileges compared to non-natives.

-- Some Americans and Canadians didn't want to, or couldn't, claim tribal status. They are on reservations. Which is a pretty shitty situation, since Anglo reservations are not sovereign, and they don't really have many protections in the Treaty of Denver (other then they get to stay). So in the Sioux the Anglo "tribe" are not full citizens, can't join the government or military, and are second-class in most respects.

[GiraffeShaman]

Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun, and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power. However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe

The Megacorps aren't a united front, unless in the face of an existential threat like the bug spirits. Any plan that involves not selling stuff to people fails, because one of them violates the pact and sells to the isolated country. (And meanwhile another of the Megas is selling through backdoor channels as well)

The Aztlan/Amazonia ongoing series of conflicts is what happens when a Mega tries to use force to take back some of the "magical wild lands." I think these areas are meant to represent Nature striking back at the infliction that is the Sprawls. Whatever forces a Megacorp or government musters, Nature says frag you and strikes back in the form of Feathered Serpents, Talking giant snakes, wild nature spirits, toxic eco shamans, and various para critters. Areas like Amazonia and Wild Siberia aren't going anywhere. The bigger the Sprawls get, the stronger these wild areas become is my theory.

There's also an econnomic aspect to the wild areas. Their pure nature leads to very powerful virgin talesma. That would go away, even if they could be ravaged by the Megacorps. So some of the magic supplier divisions of corps have a reason to preserve them. I'd imagine Wuxing would be big time into that. Probaly the Draco Foundation too.

It's kind of interesting, in that SR's world isn't a one note Dystopia.

[Tzeentch]

Yep, I was just thinking economics. Set aside the military stuff for a second, since it's lost a bit of weight in a world really owned by megacorps who are all about profit; I have to wonder how well the NAN countries do economically. Just judging from anecdotal evidence in the Denver sourcebook, the NAN seem to be big on 'back to nature', with part of the provisions of the Treaty of Denver being that a good chunk of the city (basically, everything built after 1987) be bulldozed so that nature can flourish or some such. Makes sense for a group that basically just won a war owing to nature spirits.

-- Actually, most of the NAN nations are very pro business. Just pro THEIR businesses, and they generally don't recognize the Business Recognition Accords. So they keep a leash on the megacorps to some extent. What happened to Tsimshian is a recent case example of why they need to do that.

But from an economic viewpoint, I can't help but wonder what the megacorps think of virtually the entire North American west outside of California (CFS) and Oregon (Tir Tairngire) adopting such a business-unfriendly policy.

-- Many in the NAN don't want what the corps are selling anyways. Shadowrun megacorps are not purely profit-driven, but they certainly would prefer to go after low-hanging markets before trying to force the NAN open and risk a neo-SAIM.

Given how much its emphasized that nation-states are a joke powerwise next to the corporations in Shadowrun,

-- I don't think this is as well-supported in canon as you may think

and given that the corporations are pretty much presented as being run by sociopaths interested only in profit at all costs, you'd think that the moment such policies were adopted the megacorps would either engineer a coup to replace the NAN governments with people more accommodating to their interests or simply isolate the region until a more corporate-friendly government came to power.

-- The people you need to win over are not the politicians, it's the shamans. Good luck with that. Tsimshian was a bit of a special case because there were so many factions that could be turned against each other. Some of the NANs don't even have a functional central government except in name (SSC, TPA).

However helpless the UCAS may be, the NAN can't exactly stand against the united displeasure of the Megacorps, and I find it hard to believe those corporations would tolerate the American west being allowed to lapse back into wilderness because nature is good and cities are bad.

-- SR corps are working on this 'problem' I'm sure. And the UCAS government can, and has, stood up to the corps before. The UCAS could end the Corporate Court at will. The threat of an Omega Sanction is about as hollow as the Great Ghost Dance, these days.

[Crimsondude]

MAGIC!


That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.

[Silence]

MAGIC!


That's literally the only way the original PCC could even exist, let alone be the second-largest economy in the world behind Japan in 2050 and eventually take over southern California, some of central California, and eventually the Ute Nation. Because without magic or a miracle there will not be enough water in New Mexico to sustain Santa Fe, let alone Albuquerque or anything else drawing water from the Rio Grande aquifer by 2050.

  Okay, that's one way of looking at it.  Another is to realize that all citizens of the PCC are company shareholders, which also means that most corporations in the PCC could be considered subsidiaries of the PCC.  An amusing, if slightly screwy way to run a country.  But since the PCC is comprised of several tribes that generally didn't get along, it makes sense to come up with some gimmick that would give everyone a stake in the government that wouldn't seem to be obviously trampling on one tribe's rights.

[Crimsondude]

Most corporations in PCC are subsidiaries of the PCC, or at least partially owned by it because the PCC government owns stock in every domestic corporation.