Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Malex on <04-18-12/1032:51>
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I began looking over Running Wild and noticed an entry that made me think of the Wraith entry in the Paranormal Animals of Europe book: Nomad (Possessing Wraith) on page 180. Along with the return of Harlequin in the Artifacts campaign it would seem to me that there's a bit of advancement in that part of the Metaplot. Has anyone else noticed other instances in the 4th Edition material that suggests this?
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Well, whenever you start talking about dragons, you have people mentioning the Fourth World eventually. But other than the artifact rush, no, I haven't seen much in the way of advancement of that part of the metaplot. Still, it would be nice to see more Harlequin. If he's 'taking a side', then that means there's going to be fun and games for all before long.
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I did find a direct mention of the Wraith in Street Magic in the Shadow Spirit section.
I've fallen behind on the current books, but any idea of what Harlequin meant by 'taking a side'? There's the schism between Metahumanity and the Dragons which could be a matter of picking a side.
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Street Legends Supplemental just mentions that he was going to take a side. As for what that means, it is something that has Frosty freaked. As for what that means? Who knows?
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My take on it is that over the past decade or so that she's been his student/confidant/etc., Jane has gotten a good idea that Harlequin is very much a soul-tired warrior that has been dreading the coming need for him to exert himself to his utmost yet again. The story bit at the start of Harlequin's Back with the convo between him and what was possibly one of the Passions gets that across very well. And she knows that if things are at a point where even the one Power that really wants to just relax as long as he can is standing up ready to dust off the armor and start taking names that it's something to worry about. She very likely doesn't really know what that will mean specifically, but her instincts and time spent around such Powers as Harlequin, her father Ehran, and Dunklezhan tell her that it won't be anything fun for anyone involved.
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I'd tend to agree with that, Valashar. One of the things I've always liked about Harlequin is that he typifies to me what most people would be like if they were granted immortality. After a certain point, having lived through so much destruction and death, and seeing both the highs and lows of civilization, you'd start to get a bit depressed by it all. Another nugget that struck me was a section from Portfolio of a Dragon where Ehran and Lady of the Court were talking, and it sounded as though Dunkelzahn's will had, among other things, shocked Ehran out of his millenia-old rut of scheming, and had shown him a bit of hope.
But that might be the romantic in me talking.
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That's not a bad interpretation of that, Mirikon, if memory serves me corretly (not guaranteed).
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The Big D was what I might call a pragmatic idealist. He had lived long enough to know full well the nature of people, and what they would do in certain situations, and he believed that he could structure things, even his death, to bring out the best in those people, to help them achieve a world that was better than it was before. And I think that is what Ehran realized after the reading of the will, and why he decided to throw away his plots to turn his attention to running the DIMR. Dunkelzhan made a believer out of Ehran.
I'd like to see more of Harlequin and Ehran together. While a millenia-old feud isn't going to go away over the course of a decade, I'd like to see whether they might start coming together.
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assuming that the feud is done, i would think that harley and ehran get along on some level, if only because they've known each other so long, including MMO gaming?!?
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Didn't Harley Shtoink Ehrans Daughter? O.o
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Didn't Harley Shtoink Ehrans Daughter? O.o
Maybe, maybe not. Frosty isn't the type of slot and tell, apparently.
She's not Kat O'Nine Tales after all.
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For a teacher to allow that sort of thing to happen with one of their students would be the height and depth of dishonor -- and while I can easily believe that Harlequin has accepted dishonor before, even done what is dishonorable in order to achieve an honorable end, I would find it hard to believe that he would violate that necessary barrier in the teacher/student relationship.
Never mind the fact that a sexual relationship alters and weakens the dynamic of the teacher/student relationship.
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For a teacher to allow that sort of thing to happen with one of their students would be the height and depth of dishonor --
This is an entirely 20th century concept.
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For a teacher to allow that sort of thing to happen with one of their students would be the height and depth of dishonor --
This is an entirely 20th century concept.
That's amusing. No, this isn't a purely 20th century concept; this is far older than that, and comes from having as students females of marriageable age whose fathers are perfectly willing to hire duelists to challenge you, or just thugs to beat you to death, if you 'ruin' the daughters they intend on using for making blood ties with other clans, merchant houses, nobles, etc.
You may be thinking of ancient Greece, which possessed strong teacher/pupil sexual dynamics between an older male and a younger student/apprentice, or the occasional 'useless uppity daughter given away as wife/concubine in order to get teacher to teach her brothers for free' found in various pre-industrial societies. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but you are wrong in your statement.
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It is not an entirely 20th century concept, but it is one that tends to be related to how liberal or conservative public morality is regarding sex at the time. There are cultures where they would say, "Both consenting adults? Go for it." Even in America, the attitude towards such a relationship would be dependent on what time period you were talking about, and what generation you were talking to. We are, of course, ignoring underage or non-consensual relationships for the purpose of this discussion.
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Actually, I was more referring to the 4th world, in which the people we are discussing would have formed their morality and ethics. Barring that, you have to go back to a culture which had both sexes as masters and students. For the better part of history, skill sets were strongly divided between male and female roles. Thus, sex didn't play a (strong) role.
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When did the Immortal elves pop up? They were already well established before the Scourge, but couldn't they have been from the 2nd or 3rd world?
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It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.
Besides, I think he and Ehran are brothers, and schtooping his niece is just gross.
That's a personal theory based on nothing but how they act toward each other. I'm from a biggish family, and to hate each other that much takes a blood relation, in my experience.
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That's a personal theory based on nothing but how they act toward each other. I'm from a biggish family, and to hate each other that much takes a blood relation, in my experience.
Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.
But in the case of these immortals even if politics didn't force them to interact, which it seems is likely to have occurred during the 5th world, it seems likely that two people that are immortal and have similar interests and originate form the same culture would, no matter how much they try to avoid interaction, be thrown together over millennium many times. This would probably happen enough that even if they started out just not quite liking each other by now they would really hate each other viscerally.
In fact given that circumstance it is hard to see how any immortal elves would enjoy the company of each other even those that loved each other once. I imagine even small foibles after thousand upon thousands of years would go far beyond irritating.
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It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.
Who said anything about love? We're talking about sex here. Let me paint this picture for you. Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead. That is an elf at age 150. Harley is like 30 times that old. We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.
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Who said anything about love? We're talking about sex here. Let me paint this picture for you. Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead. That is an elf at age 150. Harley is like 30 times that old. We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.
I did, and if he were having the conversation, Harlequin probably would, too. I'm fully aware of the time scale involved; it's one of the reasons, in fact, that I said what I said. Since you're being condescending today, however, and it kinda pissed me off, let me paint you a counter-picture.
You're immortal. You've done everything, tried every kink, had orgies that would make Caligula jealous. You've fucked women, you've fucked men...you've done it all. And, like so many before you, immortal and mortal both, you've made a discovery: Fucking for the sake of fucking is meaningless. Mortal or immortal, you reach a point where getting your dick wet is a chore unless there's really something in it for you. It has to matter if you're going to get it up. The older you get, the less a slave to your gonads you are.
After a while, if there's not love, it's not worth it. And Harlequin does not love Jane Foster. Matter of fact, the only person he's ever really loved has, in the very recent past, gotten herself dead. Or something; considering some of the magics involved, it's hard to say what happened to Aina. But there was, apparently, a body.
Caimbuel loved Aina; she was probably his only real friend. And they were together during Frosty's tutelage. Yeah, he could have gotten some sort of advantage over his age-old enemy by deflowering his daughter, and that could have made it worthwhile...but it would have been petty and dishonorable, which would not. It's not in his character.
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Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.
It works the same way for immortals. You don't like the person, even if you hate the person, you can avoid them. It's a big world and we're small beings; there's room to get around someone.
Harlequin and Ehran, though, went to some great lengths to keep their feud going. You gotta have a reason to do something like that, and that reason is usually blood. In my experience, limited as it is, at least.
But in the case of these immortals even if politics didn't force them to interact, which it seems is likely to have occurred during the 5th world, it seems likely that two people that are immortal and have similar interests and originate form the same culture would, no matter how much they try to avoid interaction, be thrown together over millennium many times. This would probably happen enough that even if they started out just not quite liking each other by now they would really hate each other viscerally.
Yeah, I'm sure they'd get thrown together accidentally more than once...but the fact remains, avoiding each other, when there are so few of you, is relatively easy.
Except for the basic human (and I use the term here very generically) tendency to gravitate towards that which is familiar. Which lends itself to your point. More on this in a moment.
In fact given that circumstance it is hard to see how any immortal elves would enjoy the company of each other even those that loved each other once. I imagine even small foibles after thousand upon thousands of years would go far beyond irritating.
As I said above, we gravitate towards that which is familiar. We seek out our own kind for companionship. And sometimes the only friend you might have handy is a mortal enemy. It's played out in history and in fiction before.
Hmmmm. Gonna have to think about this. You haven't changed my mind; I still think Harlequin and Ehran are brothers. But you have given me a bit to think about.
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It's not the Laughing Man's style. Yeah, it would piss off Ehran, but Harlequin isn't all about sex. He strikes me, in fact, as fairly monogamous, and there haven't been many women he's really loved.
Who said anything about love? We're talking about sex here. Let me paint this picture for you. Imagine if 99.99% of the people you've ever met, loved, hated, etc. were dead. That is an elf at age 150. Harley is like 30 times that old. We are but pet gold fish to an immortal.
Gold fish last longer than us.
Especially in Shadowrun.
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@Patrick: I wasn't being condescending, I was making it very clear to everyone, not just you, that elves and immortality makes it difficult to hold much affection for anyone. You're point about getting your wang wet needs to expand to letting someone touch your heart when it gets to the time scale of the immortals. Everyone dies eventually, if you live long enough. So love means getting your heart broken eventually. I suspect that's why the immortals have so many enemies. They get the same visceral emotional content of love but when their enemy dies, they get to rejoice rather than mourn.
An immortal showing you any attention at all is a kindness they grant upon you. If they have sex with you, it is for your benefit, not theirs.
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Careful with the language and attitude.
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*Blinks* We haven't brought up the Attitude book.
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Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that kind of attitude. Sorry.
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Not really to have a deep emotional connection (love or hate) just generally takes knowign a great deal about someone granted in our relatively(compared to an immortal) short lifetimes this happens most often to be a blood relative when it comes to hate as you generally don't hang around people you dislike unless you are forced to by circumstances.
It works the same way for immortals. You don't like the person, even if you hate the person, you can avoid them. It's a big world and we're small beings; there's room to get around someone.
Harlequin and Ehran, though, went to some great lengths to keep their feud going. You gotta have a reason to do something like that, and that reason is usually blood. In my experience, limited as it is, at least.
Or they could simply enjoy the rivalry at some level. Looking at Ehran and Harlequin, I can't honestly say they hate eachother. The times when they've been together (and not actively trying to kill eachother), they've acted like foils for eachother. I think that, at some level, they like the challenge of having another immortal that they can match wits against, who isn't a dragon, in realms outside of politics. It is like Georgia versus Georgia Tech in any sport (but especially football). You want to beat the rival, but it isn't a matter of hate, like with Georgia-Florida or Alabama-Auburn. This is all about bragging rights.
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If Harlequin had a sexual relationship with Frosty, it would likely have been between Harlequin and Harlequin's Back - judging from some of the fiction and fluff there, Harlequin was in a pretty messed up state before he started hunting horrors, and with all the delight and fun gone after the victory against Ehran, he might've stooped low enough to see if 'going at it' with Ehran's daughter could bring back some of the fun.
I'm doubtful that they are brothers - the ED stuff doesn't really seem to support it, as far as I can tell - the simple fact that they are both immortals could be enough to keep the fire going. After all, only a handful of people in the world would be able to give them any real form of stimulating interaction, so avoiding each other would be counter-intuitive even if you do hate each other. I think the confluct kept going the first few millenia mostly due to Harlequin - he seems the type who is easily bored if he doesn't have a purpose, and any purpose involving mortals would quickly (for an immortal) lose it's fun.
As I interpret it, Ehran messed up when he took Harlequin's ear off, and that pushed it from 'friendly competition' to deeper conflict. I agree with Mirikon that they certainly don't hate each other - it's more complex than that. They wouldn't've had the various sit-downs described in the fiction if they did.
Frosty's recent bitterness toward Harlequin (Street Legends Supplemental) would seem to indicate either that they were lo ers, or that she loved him at least, and that something bad happened during the Artifact business - before or after Aina's death. Possibly H rejecting Frosty, or Frosty finding out about her father, and how H had hidden that fact from her.
Regardless, I think their relationship has been complicated - for many reasons.
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I agree with Patrick here. As far as I'm concerned, it was totally platonic.
Regardless, I think their relationship has been complicated - for many reasons.
8)
Indeed.
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Kind of related...
In the Aztlan when Dunkie and the IEs were taking about religion, Dunkie implied that he helped lessen religion's grip on humanity. I took that to mean his agents, unless dragons could be active, say like stuck in human form, Is a dragon being active possible in the 5th age or able to communicate with agents?
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The dragons were sleeping (mostly) through the Fifth World. Some 'historical' dragon sightings may have been a dragon that got disturbed in its lair, and had a snack.
As for the Aztlan book quote, I take it to mean that, before the Fourth World ended, the Dragons and the Immortal Elves had a chat, and decided on a path forward, to prepare for the next Awakening.
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There were plenty of major changes that happened as soon as the SIxth World began, not gradual like over the length of the Fifth World, but just sudden "Tearing the Roman Catholic Church apart and making it incredibly hated in Ireland" changes.
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Add in a couple waves of VITAS, a dragon answering a call for jihad by burning a city to the ground, and how religious groups in general reacted to metahumanity and the Awakened, and yes, they lost a lot of clout, very quickly.
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Just see this topic emerges from time to time...I have a Question...
Ancient files. The site is down for almost a year now.
Are they gone for good and never appear anywhere again? Or is there any hidden copy in the Library, that man can download and protect as a precious treasure in his database of resources?
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In the Aztlan sourcebook, D and the IEs were discussing the possibility of a dragon being on the Board. D denied any rumors. In his will, he left his board seat to someone. He was totally trolling the elves.
In order to avoid a religious debate, I am limiting this next part to the ED/SR setting...
First thing you have to remember is that Earthdawn (and Shadowrun) is not DND. Next thing to remember is that Passions were not gods. I'm not saying they were horrors pretending to be gods (although that's a fun line of thought), I'm saying that they were not thought of as gods. Back in the 4th world, it was an age of heroes. They wielded unimaginable power. The common folk saw them rise from their own villages to become fierce defenders. When you see that kind of magic demonstrated first hand and it is explainable, it is very hard to get anyone to believe in gods rather than just powerful people. It wasn't until magic was stripped away and only the memories of such things existed as legends that you could convince people of the existence of gods.
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I always had a feeling that passions are more like Memetics...the more people believes in them, the more power they have...well I never thought that they were personalized or something like that...
Just generalized tendencies...
ma I wrong?
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Ya, that's pretty close to how I was envisioning them.
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Someone's got a mirror of the Ancient Files. I'll try to find the link, but it might have to wait until I get home from this class this weekend.
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Ancient Files (http://web.archive.org/web/20101108175546/http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/)
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To George "Locomotive" Fenamore, wherever he is at present, I sadly bequeath the locked steel box number 412 from my private vault at the Manhattan Citibank Depository. The box is not to be opened until he deems it absolutely necessary, or until my comrade manages to successfully "survive" another Double Tuesday. I pray the darkness ends for you someday.
I wanna know what's in the boooooooooooooooooooox!
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Do you realize that implies there could be several hundred other boxes full of crazy shit sitting in a vault in Lower Manhattan?
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Just see this topic emerges from time to time...I have a Question...
Ancient files. The site is down for almost a year now.
Are they gone for good and never appear anywhere again? Or is there any hidden copy in the Library, that man can download and protect as a precious treasure in his database of resources?
I'm out man. There are mirrors and archives of everything up, and if you absolutely can't find something feel free to ping me. But I am out.
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Just see this topic emerges from time to time...I have a Question...
Ancient files. The site is down for almost a year now.
Are they gone for good and never appear anywhere again? Or is there any hidden copy in the Library, that man can download and protect as a precious treasure in his database of resources?
http://web.archive.org/web/20100117082050/http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Dunk_Will.htm
Edit- Hello AH hope you're doing well.
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Do you realize that implies there could be several hundred other boxes full of crazy shit sitting in a vault in Lower Manhattan?
If the DF hasn't moved it already.
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Link I had wasn't on archive.org, as I recall. Someone on Dumpshock has it mirrored. See what I can come up.
Okay, here (http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/index.html).
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Do you realize that implies there could be several hundred other boxes full of crazy shit sitting in a vault in Lower Manhattan?
If the DF hasn't moved it already.
True, but the main point is "hundreds of other things like whatever is in this box that might only be destroyed by at least a gigantic microwave blast furnace."
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Shadowrun SR4A and Earthdawn Connections?
Check out the Shadowrun Missions 04-00 "Back In Business". Just ran it for my group, and I just realized something very... Interesting.
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Something has been bugging me about where Dunkie awoke... why in Canada? If Earthdawn was set in Ukranie how and why did Dunkie end up in Canada?
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Dunk awoke in Colorado. He later took up primary residence in Canada. One would assume it's for similar reasons as to why Ghostwalker and Hestaby now reside in North America. Dunk and GW were the most powerful Barsaivan greats, so ...
It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
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Do you realize that implies there could be several hundred other boxes full of crazy shit sitting in a vault in Lower Manhattan?
If the DF hasn't moved it already.
Guess that last Adventure from current session is called Battle for Manhattan. I uess that would be more CC oriented, but still...
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It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
I'd wager it had something to do with the fact that Cherynoble means Worm Wood in the local tongue. Something tells me there's a bit of a background count there.
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Something has been bugging me about where Dunkie awoke... why in Canada? If Earthdawn was set in Ukranie how and why did Dunkie end up in Canada?
Of the little we know about Americas in the Earthdawn era, the most significant thing probably is the use of blood magic by feathered serpents and the war that broke between them as a result. It seems the local dragons agreed to use blood magic to fight off the Horrors. But a war broke out between two groups: those who used the blood magic on a very large scale to repair the whole land and regrow the rain forest, and those who taught blood magic to metahumans to create an army against the Horrors. Each side accused the other of using too much blood magic and being manipulated by the Horrors. Dunkelzahn, Ghostwalker and Hestaby may have come to the Americas to help one side or maybe for peace talks of some sort.
The first group was the basis of what could become the Amazonian nation. The second one, by their teaching, laid the foundation of the sacrificial rites in American culture, like the Aztec rites revived by Aztechnology (which kinda answers which side was manipulated by the Horrors) but possibly also the Pacific Northwest potlatch for instance.
That would also give a reason why Dunkelzahn seemingly was more aware of the Horrors threat in the Sixth World and more active in fighting Aztechnology than the other Great Dragons in the Sixth World. Also, Ghostwalker probably vowed to keep South Platte River (or any geographical feature that existed prior to the Denver sprawl) free from Corruption, explaining why he got so mad to see Aztechnology there.
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It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
I'd wager it had something to do with the fact that Cherynoble means Worm Wood in the local tongue. Something tells me there's a bit of a background count there.
Actually it refers to the mugwort grass that grows in the area. Wormwood was a misnomer by a non-native speaker. If you want to go conspiracy, that non-native speaker may have been an immortal who misspoke and then covered it up. He may have said 'Wyrmwood' referring to the pre-scourge Bloodwood of Earthdawn.
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It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
I always believed the elves grabbed Oregon because it was the best land that no one would miss when they started their country. Being immortal elves they either figured out the treaty of Denver who gets the land, manipulated all sides to the point they wanted, or prophecy clued them in where the treaty might split the land.
In Oregon one side is ocean, other side has good river for many uses, and 2 decently defendable sides.
Best available land.
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Two words: Crater Lake.
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It's not like there's a transcontinental power line that dumps into Cra ...
Oh, wait. There is.
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Oh, and let's not forget that large parts of Oregon were still in fairly good environmental conditions. The pacific northwest was polluted, sure, but not to the extent the east coast was. Combined with Crater Lake's significance, and geographic features that made for good defense, it was a good choice. Especially since with everyone's eyes on Denver, they could do the 'out of sight, out of mind' routine.
In other connections, I was rereading the old SOTA books, and came across a mention of a the Sagan Zaba (White Rock) on Olkahon Island. Supposedly haunted area, where a cave is supposed to have suddenly appeared, with evidence of habitation going back thousands of years. Remind anyone of the Deep Lacuna?
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Supposedly haunted area, where a kaer is supposed to have suddenly appeared, with evidence of habitation going back thousands of years.
Fixed that for you. :D
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Makes me wonder if Alcheras were used as one of defense lines in kaer grid...
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The elves took a chunk of prime real estate from NAN, if it had been a piece of UCAS things might of been different.
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The elves took a chunk of prime real estate from NAN, if it had been a piece of UCAS things might of been different.
No, they took a prime piece of real estate from a shattered NAN state which was still crippled from the Great Ghost Dance. Notice where all the erupted volcanoes are. The Salish fought hard to recapture it but those elves had a wicked magical advantage, and a surprising amount of military support. They brought the elves in (the Sidhe in Salish-Sidhe Council) along with other metas to repopulate the areas devastated by the eruptions. When the elves seceded, there really wasn't any back up in reserve to stop them.
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Season 4 of Shadowrun Missions.
I only got it the other night...
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Quick, slightly related question: I remember seeing a list of Earthdawn / SR crossover info but can't find the link any more (it might have been in the now switched off Ancient Files?!?). It had things like Big D's and Lofwyr's ED names etc... any help finding it again would be great!
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http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/index.html
The Russian Mirror for Ancient Files
On it you will find the Shadowrun/Earthdawn Crossover link. As for Big D and Ghosty. Mountainshadow and Icewing respectively.
Alexis
*smiles*
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The Yonaguni Monument in Hazard Pay is definately an ED Reference.
1. A sperethiel/or'zet-like written mansucript was found (as far as the rumor goes).
2. After the comet "something" awakened under the monument. My first thought: Godzilla *g*. But after Man of many Names commented that even dragons fear something and want it prisoned, my second thought was: Verjigorm (sp).
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2. After the comet "something" awakened under the monument. My first thought: Godzilla *g*. But after Man of many Names commented that even dragons fear something and want it prisoned, my second thought was: Verjigorm (sp).
Doesn't have to be Verjigorm to be feared. And considering the Big V's very nature, I really don't think the Great Hunter could be imprisoned that way. Imagine instead a Horror-Tainted Great Dragon; that'd set the fox in the henhouse.
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2. After the comet "something" awakened under the monument. My first thought: Godzilla *g*. But after Man of many Names commented that even dragons fear something and want it prisoned, my second thought was: Verjigorm (sp).
Doesn't have to be Verjigorm to be feared. And considering the Big V's very nature, I really don't think the Great Hunter could be imprisoned that way. Imagine instead a Horror-Tainted Great Dragon; that'd set the fox in the henhouse.
Or a dragon who was invested with an insect spirit. Or one of the other Horrors. I agree that locking up Verjigorm is impossible, but locking up the dragons who had been cocooned by Verjigorm, however...
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2. After the comet "something" awakened under the monument. My first thought: Godzilla *g*. But after Man of many Names commented that even dragons fear something and want it prisoned, my second thought was: Verjigorm (sp).
Doesn't have to be Verjigorm to be feared. And considering the Big V's very nature, I really don't think the Great Hunter could be imprisoned that way. Imagine instead a Horror-Tainted Great Dragon; that'd set the fox in the henhouse.
Or a dragon who was invested with an insect spirit. Or one of the other Horrors. I agree that locking up Verjigorm is impossible, but locking up the dragons who had been cocooned by Verjigorm, however...
I am relatively certain that no insect spirit would be able to invest a regular dragon, much less a Great, despite current 'if they cast the ritual, forget it, you're fucked' rules of the game. So yeah -- either an insane dragon/Great, or a Horror-tainted one. The difference of which is ... purely academic. :P
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Remember the Aztlan sourcebook has implied that there is a mechanic for sacrificing a dragon to summon a blood spirit.
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Not entirely accurate, James. As I recall, it was noticed that the more mystically powerful and the higher up the sentient 'food chain' a blood spirit summoning victim was, the more powerful the summoned blood spirit was. And someone wondered how powerful the blood spirit would be if it was a dragon sacrificed using that particular summoning ritual...
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So yeah -- either an insane dragon/Great, or a Horror-tainted one. The difference of which is ... purely academic. :P
Trust me, it really isn't. An insane great dragon could do some serious damage before being put down, sure. But the last Horror-possessed dragon that I'm aware of could poison the soil and kill crops just by flying overhead.
There are three possibilities that I can think of from Earthdawn for our dragon escapee:
1. Vestrivan, the aforementioned Horror-possessed dragon, also known as the Despoiler of the Land. Has a bit of a split personality thing going on.
2. One of the dragons that was corrupted by Verjigorm in an astral cocoon (possibly during metamorphasis from adolescence to adulthood).
3. Denairastas, the Outcast. A dragon exiled for interbreeding with humans (which was banned after Alamaise's little oopsie with the Immortal Elves) to raise an army of half-dragon mages to conquer the world. If the IEs are still around in SR, then his children, the Clan of Iopos, could easily be as well.
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Remember the Aztlan sourcebook has implied that there is a mechanic for sacrificing a dragon to summon a blood spirit.
I remember some corrupted great dragon landing on AZ teocali, well not sure if it was meant it is Blood spirit. It may be the one who tought Aztlaners this Death magic...
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Not entirely accurate, James. As I recall, it was noticed that the more mystically powerful and the higher up the sentient 'food chain' a blood spirit summoning victim was, the more powerful the summoned blood spirit was. And someone wondered how powerful the blood spirit would be if it was a dragon sacrificed using that particular summoning ritual...
My point was that it listed the max Force as "Unknown" and is allowed to be summoned as a Great Form. Azltan, 176.
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Not entirely accurate, James. As I recall, it was noticed that the more mystically powerful and the higher up the sentient 'food chain' a blood spirit summoning victim was, the more powerful the summoned blood spirit was. And someone wondered how powerful the blood spirit would be if it was a dragon sacrificed using that particular summoning ritual...
My point was that it listed the max Force as "Unknown" and is allowed to be summoned as a Great Form. Azltan, 176.
Well, yeah, 'cause where are you gonna get a dragon to sacrifice?? ;)
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Shirrrug?
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They got one after the assassination of Juan Azcatpo-whatever . . . the public line is 'executed for terrorism/treason', but this is Azzie . . .
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In fact, I always thought that Azies are using Theran magic, you know, that which their Behemots flying...am I wrong?
Since Ive seen this debate about Bad/Good Blood magic and even Dragons schism about its use...and now IDN if Azies got their magic from Thera, or they have their magic from one of those feathered dragons...
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If there was anyone who was heir to the magical legacies of the Therans, it would be the Black Lodge, I think. I would bet that Aztlan got their blood magic know-how from the feathered serpents in the area, the ones who believed in doing Death magic back in the Fourth World. The other side of that divide would be the feathered serpents following Hualpa.
The corrupted eastern dragon mentioned in the Aztlan sourcebook is most likely the Smoking Mirror, who is the real power behind Aztechnology's blood mage cabal these days.
As far as the Outcast's progeny, if they did not become the Black Lodge, then I could see their purpose shifting, so that they became the dragonslayer groups operating during the downtime.
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If there was anyone who was heir to the magical legacies of the Therans, it would be the Black Lodge, I think.
Threats does suggest the Black Lodge Penultimate Master is an immortal human, and the only other known case of immortal human is the Denairastas Clan. Etymology also suggest theirwuld be an Ultimate Master somewhere, which could be the Outcast.
Loose Alliances, pages 104-105, hints at a link between the Black Lodge and the Vigilia Evangelica. The Black Lodge knowledge would come from materials stolen in the a abbey during the Middle Ages. Peter Taylor intended that part to be clearly explained in Game Information, but that was cut out (he released the text online later, thus as non-official material).
Note the two are not mutually exclusive. The Denairastas may have helped create and infiltrated the Vatican, and then stealing things from their vault.
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Not sure if this link (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15332&st=150&p=472150&#entry472150) has been posted already - the material Nath references.
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Dunk awoke in Colorado. He later took up primary residence in Canada. One would assume it's for similar reasons as to why Ghostwalker and Hestaby now reside in North America. Dunk and GW were the most powerful Barsaivan greats, so ...
It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
If you read the Thera Empire from Earthdawn you will see that Thera/Atlantis had colonies in the Americas, even more you can deduce they are planning to use Locus and other place of power to maintain a certain level of magic during down-cycle to keep in power.
For me the late 4th age saw a conflagration between Thera and the IE and Dragons, IE and Dragons probably uniting (on Aine incite ?) against Theran to stop their scheme wich in fact could have helped the Horrors too to maintain a bridge during 5th World down-cycle.
Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.
I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
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That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???
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Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.
What Ghostwalker said and did when he returned to Denver area suggest he vowed somehow to protect the area from corruption (and by 2061, Aztechnology presence qualifies). So that rather looks like a willing choice to stay or at least visit regularly. Ends up Ghostwalker was trapped elsewhere all that time anyway.
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That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???
The Blood Wood in the late ED time is on the verge of collapsing into itself, the Wood is nearly out of control and the Court is going to lose Elven support as Shosara and Serethea are asking for it to move away. If you consider that Thera was formed from BW/WW expatriates then it is possible that to counterbalance the rise of secondary elvish court, Alacchia reluctantly accept an alliance of sort with Thera (wich experience in Blood magic is quite strong and could have helped with the Heart of the Wood problem).
We have no real idea on how long between ED time and real end of the 4th world, probably a mere centuries, I dont think a millenium. ED is the dusk of the Magic 4th world wich is artificially prolongued and the dawn of the 5th world. (Totally reverse position with Shadowrun wich is the dawn of the 6th World).
P.S. Sorry for the name spelling doing all that from memory.
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Dunk awoke in Colorado. He later took up primary residence in Canada. One would assume it's for similar reasons as to why Ghostwalker and Hestaby now reside in North America. Dunk and GW were the most powerful Barsaivan greats, so ...
It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"
If you read the Thera Empire from Earthdawn you will see that Thera/Atlantis had colonies in the Americas, even more you can deduce they are planning to use Locus and other place of power to maintain a certain level of magic during down-cycle to keep in power.
For me the late 4th age saw a conflagration between Thera and the IE and Dragons, IE and Dragons probably uniting (on Aine incite ?) against Theran to stop their scheme wich in fact could have helped the Horrors too to maintain a bridge during 5th World down-cycle.
Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.
I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
For this topic I have a question,...since Im not so forged in events related to Locus....I got the idea that Locus in question (That one Aztech had under control) is an artefact Therans developed to survive the downtime until next magic age comes. I also had a feeling, that there is more than just one Locus (hardly remembering this well IMO in Aztechnology there was quoted as: they have one of Locus or something). Can you enlighten me? Thx
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In the Aztlan book, Jungle Cat (who I believe is Hualpa) says that they have a Locus point in Amazonia. They also talk about the possibility of Aztlan having a Locus point, and there is a round of shudders at the idea that theirs might be Corrupt.
As a side note, after rereading the Aztlan book, I'm thinking that the person who anonymously sent the Aztlan info to Shadowland (who the sysops dubbed Espectro, or Ghost) was actually Dunkelzhan himself. There was a good deal said about how hard it would be for someone to get legit documents from so many places: confidential reports from Ares Arms, UCAS ConsOps, Yucatan rebels, and so on. One poster said that there was no one so well connected into so many groups. But after Dunkelzhan's death, when we learned certain things like his seat on the boards of both Aztechnology and Ares, as well as his network of Watchers, who would have been better placed to collect such a file, and get it to Shadowland anonymously?
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Another dragon.
Now, how many would? Not many. So, yeah, it's likely Dunkie. Also explains why he pulled in the "Hidden Council" group to comment on it.
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I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???
The high number of elven birth in Ireland suggests there was an Elven nation there during the Fourth Age. So we can imagine it was among the realms ruled by the Blood Wood before the Scourge (one argument against this is that, if Serethea, modern-day Latvia, was in the Western Kingdoms, it somehow suggests the elves weren't aware or didn't care about places west of them).
However, Tir na nOg Seelie Court is different from the Blood Wood Elven Court, since it includes not only elves, but also spirits, pixies, leshies and the likes, who gather on some sort of metaplane. Maybe the island wasn't an elven nation, but the realm of "fairies". Elves and the Elven Court would have moved over there late in the Fourth Age and the fairies offered them those refugees a shelter. That could explain there seems to be far more fairies than elves at the Seelie Court.
Though Tir na nOg council of stewart, the gathering of the Danaan families, could be compared to both the Blood Wood Consorts and the Theran Empire Conclave, so can most oligarchies in history. On the other hand, there are eight major clans, the Danaan mór, just as Queen Alachia had eight Consorts in the Blood Wood (however, it's Alachia who set that number, there used to have more or less before).
But it also worth noting that while the major clans are known to have ruled Ireland since prehistoric times or so, clans of Norman ascent established in Ireland since the Middle ages (Fitzgerald, Burke and Butler) also belong to the Council of Stewarts. So the historical connection with the Fourth Age may prove thin. They nonetheless had a number of elven birth just as high as the other clan (save the big eight). There may be an explanation, like some Norman family line going back to Shosara, or some wandering Immortal Elves fathering one of their ancestor.
Tir Tairngire Council of Princes may also be compared to the Blood Wood Consorts. The number of elven Princes also was eight: Aithne Oakforest, Sean Laverty, Jenna ni'Fairra, Ehran, Jonathon Reed, Maria Cinebal and Dar Varien, plus Sosan Naerain (strongly hinted at being the former Queen of the Blood Wood, Alachia) or Lugh Surehand (depending which of those two you want to piss off by insinuating he/she is a consort).
There was no dragon on the council at the founding of Tir Tairngire. As far as the telling goes, it was Surehand own decision, strongly resisted by all the other immortals, except Sean Laverty. So maybe immortal elves and great dragons hadn't discussed the foundation of Tir Tairngire beforehand. But there might have been some sort of agreement to have a dragon overseer on the council, and the princes were simply opposed at the seat going to Alamais' brother. It seems also Lofwyr got to choose who would replace him when in left.
It's difficult to assess Hestaby position, since she first appeared to block Tir Tairngire military forces moving in Mount Shasta area. If the IE knew there was a great dragon lair in the area, they would have knew the invasion was meant to fail. Had they discussed the importance of Crater Lake with dragons during the Fourth Age and the need to watch over it, they could have know one of the dragon was to set a lair near (there's less than 200 kilometers between Crater Lake and Mount Shasta ; it's next door to a magical flying lizard). Maybe they weren't sure Hestaby was awake or survived the "downhunt" and sent military troops to see if something happens.
What I found to be the most telling point is the fact Tir Tairngire head of state is no king, only a high prince. Would have Alachia be Queen of Tir Tairngire if the other IE hadn't barred her from it? Or does the crown officially remains in Tir na nOg, as an "host" of the local fairy court?
Alachia obviously has the pivotal role. She was the Queen of the Blood Wood during the Fourth Age. In the Sixth, she is (or so it seems) only one of the Prince of Tir Tairngire, and an advisor to the Queen of the Seelie Court. She is also at the head of the Atlantean Foundation, but Dawn of the Artifacts revealed she forged the Atlantean/Theran codex she showed to the Mystic Crusaders. So Alachia is actually pillaging the Theran legacy. Call that an ally.
The true heir of the Theran Empire seems to be the Heavenherds tribe in the Zulu Nation, where Thera established their colony of Aznan. "Heavenherd" was the title of Thera most powerful mage, who were all humans or elves. The Zulu Nation, on the other hand, is an Elven nation, and the Heavenherds tribe is known for including really only elves. According to Augmentation, the Heavenherds tribe knew magical rituals designed to lengthen the lives of the most worthy members of the tribe, by binding them to something called "passions" (sounds familiar ?). Frosty comments both Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire "wooed" the tribe.
I think at some point the Therans formed one group of Heavenherds, sent to Aznan and tasked with preserving Theran lore and knowledge during the Fifth Age. All of them were elves because they had a longer lifespan to start with, with rituals on top of that. But it may not have been enough for any of them to survive until the return of magic.
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We have no real idea on how long between ED time and real end of the 4th world, probably a mere centuries, I dont think a millenium.
Actually, we do. Earthdawn starts right after the end of the Scourge, which was a period of about 400 years during which the mana level was highest and the Horrors could run amok. This would have been roughly in the middle of the Fourth World, about halfway between the downcycles of the Third and Fifth worlds. The Mayan Long Count is about 5,000 years long, so there should be about 2,000 years between Earthdawn and the mana level dropping to pre-Awakening levels.
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.....
tell me more oh masta...
Excelent post. Thank you very much...more lore :)
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Two additional thoughts about the Heavenherds... and then some more.
Some people may wonder how the heirs to Thera/Atlantis, specifically trying to preserve the lore and knowledge, could end as a tribe of hunter gatherer instead of, say, a major civilization building pyramids or the Nuremberg stadium. I got an answer for that: magic. Thera depended on magic. Everything from they do in from mining to architecture would heavily relies on magic. Remove magic and all that knowledge is next to useless.
On top of that, maybe the Heavenherd were also actually given instructions to keep a low profile during the whole Fifth Age, since major civilizations tend to get involved in war and all that.
Let's also go with the crazy theory. We're told about the Heavenherd in Augmentations because members of the tribe used the live-lengthening rituals as a basis for cybermancy in Universal Omnitech project. Universal Omnitech, as you may know, is a biotech corporation, headquartered in Vancouver but also very active in Africa (after moving into the synthetic diamonds market with Dikote, they came to bought off De Beers).
There is another organization that deal with biotech, active in Africa, whose very name points at an origin in the Pacific Northwest: Tamanous. We can imagine there would some connection between one major biotech corp and the major organlegging gang operating in the same business and the same areas.
For the Pacific Nortwest tribes, the Tamanous is the name of one or several spirits, depending on who you ask (as far as I understand, near California and Oregon, legends refer to Tamanous as a single great spirit, while in Wasghington and British Columbia Tamanous is a generic term). Canadian law did ban at some point the potlatch rituals as well as the Tamanawas dance. The SR organleggers organization may be related to the Hamatsa cannibal secret society of the Kwakiutl tribe that worshipped a spirit called the Black Tamanous (on the other hand, considering the size of the Kwakiutl tribe and its poor condition within the Tsimshian police state, it may be unlikely Tamanous origin would be such a secret if it was a purely Kwakiutl thing). Potlacht is one forme of ritualized material sacrifice (well, not so ritualized in SR when the Tsimshian nation used to apply death penalty on Potlatch Day...). Cannibalism on the other hand, is straight blood magic. To put it another way, Pacific Northwest culture share some traits with Mesoamerican cultures.
So, we can imagine Tamanous and Universal Omnitech would pick up their shamans from the same lodges, lodges that practice blood magic. And the Heavenherds would have worked with such shamans to perform cybermancy... We can go as far as claiming that of all the magical groups that exist in the world, not the least of them the two elven nation that wooed them, the Heavenherd chose to work with blood mages from the Pacific Northwest. And at that time, UO was also cooperating with Aztechnology...
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Could anyone tell me if the great dragons finally stuck it to the Outcast and his kids in Iopos, and if so, what book it is in? I'm rereading some of the old Earthdawn books for kicks at work.
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If you read the Thera Empire from Earthdawn you will see that Thera/Atlantis had colonies in the Americas
The Theran colony is called Araucania. Until today, I assumed this ought to be a reference to modern-era Araucania or Araucana, a region in central Chili, named after the city of Arauco, itself named by the Spanish after the locals name for a river flowing there (it means "chalky water" as far as the Internet goes). But I discovered there is also an Arauca river stretching from Colombia to Venezuela, flowing into Orinoco. That location that would have a lot more implication given the ongoing war in the area. It seems (again, Internet sources) the U'wa tribe was also called U'wa Auraca by their neighbors, "u'wa" meaning "people" and "u'wa arauca" meaning "the thinking people" or "the people who speak well." Such name may make sense for people descending from a much more advanced civilization.
Of course, there's some suspension of disbelief required here to believe the name could have been kept for millenias, but people in Barsaive circa 4000 BC weren't speaking English either.
We have no real idea on how long between ED time and real end of the 4th world, probably a mere centuries, I dont think a millenium.
Actually, we do. Earthdawn starts right after the end of the Scourge, which was a period of about 400 years during which the mana level was highest and the Horrors could run amok. This would have been roughly in the middle of the Fourth World, about halfway between the downcycles of the Third and Fifth worlds. The Mayan Long Count is about 5,000 years long, so there should be about 2,000 years between Earthdawn and the mana level dropping to pre-Awakening levels.
It is actually an assumption that the peak occurred at the exact middle of the Fourth Age. It's an assumption that most people took as granted so far, including some if not most of the authors. But as far as I know, it has yet to be a written statement in a book.
To me, the most interesting part of the peak-in-the-middle assumption is RL geologists think the Mount Mazama eruption that created Crater Lake would have occurred around 5,677 BC ±150, while the mana would have peaked in 5'675 BC. That would have a different meaning from the much more genuine date claimed by Tir Tairngire historian Lacrima in 3'454 BC.
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Since flow of mana and the Cycle is described as sinusoid it makes sense to assume that the peak is in the middle of the curve...
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The cycle does not conform to a perfect wave form. There are spikes and ebbs, and sometimes deliberate efforts to change the curve.
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The cycle does not conform to a perfect wave form. There are spikes and ebbs, and sometimes deliberate efforts to change the curve.
Aha . . . one of Aztechnology's Secret/Master Plans stands revealed . . .
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For me its more like High Tide/Ebb tide. There may be storms that can temporarily increase the sea level on the coast, and there are even Tsunami, well that sequenceis the only one that stands forever...
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And remember than in ED times, both Horrors in Vasgothia and Therans in Thera and other places of power, are actively sustaining the magic level so he stop resceding.... this could have prolongued the cycle. Or not, if the sudden crash of thoses constructs put the level back to normal very fast (and sunk Thera BTW).
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And remember than in ED times, both Horrors in Vasgothia and Therans in Thera and other places of power, are actively sustaining the magic level so he stop resceding.... this could have prolongued the cycle. Or not, if the sudden crash of thoses constructs put the level back to normal very fast (and sunk Thera BTW).
From which ww can take the lesson that the cycle is unchangeable and self-repairing and trying to affect it is like trying to stop George Takei from saying Ohh Myyy (tm)
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And remember than in ED times, both Horrors in Vasgothia and Therans in Thera and other places of power, are actively sustaining the magic level so he stop resceding.... this could have prolongued the cycle. Or not, if the sudden crash of thoses constructs put the level back to normal very fast (and sunk Thera BTW).
Would this Thera place be Atlantis?
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I'm fairly sure it's canon that Thera inspired the Atlantis myth.
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Thera was the source of the Atlantis myth, yeah. And if there was anyone in the Sixth World who would be carrying on the best traditions of the Theran Empire, it would be Aztechnology.
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Aehm...
Atlantis was the source of Thera myth.
Considering the oposit to be truth means you are realy indoctrinated by Shadowrun/Earthdawn paradigm to the level even Horizon would envy :)
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Sichr, we're speaking from the viewpoint of the setting, in which case Thera was indeed the source of the Atlantis myth. Just as dragons being around in previous ages were the source of all the dragon myths you saw.
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Sichr, we're speaking from the viewpoint of the setting, in which case Thera was indeed the source of the Atlantis myth. Just as dragons being around in previous ages were the source of all the dragon myths you saw.
But they didn't have ketchup back in the day!
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Sichr, we're speaking from the viewpoint of the setting, in which case Thera was indeed the source of the Atlantis myth. Just as dragons being around in previous ages were the source of all the dragon myths you saw.
But they didn't have ketchup back in the day!
So they claim...
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Sichr, we're speaking from the viewpoint of the setting, in which case Thera was indeed the source of the Atlantis myth. Just as dragons being around in previous ages were the source of all the dragon myths you saw.
But they didn't have ketchup back in the day!
So they claim...
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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But could be evidence of abstinence.
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Aehm...
Atlantis was the source of Thera myth.
Considering the oposit to be truth means you are realy indoctrinated by Shadowrun/Earthdawn paradigm to the level even Horizon would envy :)
Actually, no. Thera was the name of an actual island in ancient Greece that exploded in a massive volcanic eruption about 3,600 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption), and is a likely inspiration for Plato's story of Atlantis.
The creators of Earthdawn just added a magical backstory to that historical event.
So yes, in-universe and in real life, Thera inspired the myths of Atlantis.
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And that, children, is why you don't piss off volcano Gods.
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Makes me think of the Highlander, when they blamed Vesuvius on 2 immortals fighting on holy ground. Talk about not the place to handle this.
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And that, children, is why you don't piss off *ANY* God.
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Aehm...
Atlantis was the source of Thera myth.
Considering the oposit to be truth means you are realy indoctrinated by Shadowrun/Earthdawn paradigm to the level even Horizon would envy :)
Actually, no. Thera was the name of an actual island in ancient Greece that exploded in a massive volcanic eruption about 3,600 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption), and is a likely inspiration for Plato's story of Atlantis.
The creators of Earthdawn just added a magical backstory to that historical event.
So yes, in-universe and in real life, Thera inspired the myths of Atlantis.
hmmhmm. Although that's not entirely accurate IRL. (put's on Atlantis expert's hat)
Thera may have inspired the myths, but Atlantis hunters have found some strange artifacts over the years.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/glozel1.jpg)
Glozel tablet displaying an Ancient One World Language.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/glozel3.jpg)
Second Glozel tablet displaying the Ancient One World Language.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/headofwoman.gif)
Image of a woman taken from a cave in Europe.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/vase.jpg)
Bell blasted out of solid rock in Mass.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/cromagtrio.jpg)
Some more cave images of cave men.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/womenoflamarche.gif)
An image of a woman from La Marche cave.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/woven.jpg)
rock carving dating from the Stone Age of a woman or child in dreadlocks.
(http://www.s8int.com/images/chaco1.jpg)
Image of Chaco Canyon.
Can I go on?
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Oh, yes, on the Subject of Atlantis. Whether or not Thera is the actual location there are so many strange artifacts found that should make one consider the possibility that:
If Atlantis doesn't exist as Plato explained it, what does all these strange artifacts mean?
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That there were civilizations before the ones we commonly know about and they were wiped out? Hell, you don't even have to look that hard for such things. The Anasazi were wiped out in North America, with barely a trace except for their cities in the side of a mesa. On Crete, there two whole written languages that they've discovered and still can't make heads or tails of. In Asia, that monument they talk about in Hazard Pay is a real thing. And civilizations tend to get wiped out every hundred years or so in Africa.
All this means that there are going to be plenty of artifacts around the world from lost civilizations. The fact that they are all lost does not mean that they are all the same civilization. However, some people, looking to prove a point, may take artifacts from other disparate civilizations, and try to combine them into some tale of one uber-civilization that's gone missing. As Atlantis is the best known of these in the West, most of these get dumped on the Atlantis's greatest hits soundtrack.
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There's a soundtrack?! Wantwantwant :P :o
I have recently . . . acquired . . . Plato's Timaeus and Critias (no relation to poster), though I haven't read them yet. Mirikon's points about the Atlantis legend/myth are good.
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That there were civilizations before the ones we commonly know about and they were wiped out? Hell, you don't even have to look that hard for such things. The Anasazi were wiped out in North America, with barely a trace except for their cities in the side of a mesa. On Crete, there two whole written languages that they've discovered and still can't make heads or tails of. In Asia, that monument they talk about in Hazard Pay is a real thing. And civilizations tend to get wiped out every hundred years or so in Africa.
All this means that there are going to be plenty of artifacts around the world from lost civilizations. The fact that they are all lost does not mean that they are all the same civilization. However, some people, looking to prove a point, may take artifacts from other disparate civilizations, and try to combine them into some tale of one uber-civilization that's gone missing. As Atlantis is the best known of these in the West, most of these get dumped on the Atlantis's greatest hits soundtrack.
Civilizations come and go, and mankind seems to never be able to learn the lessons from them, even when they're recorded and remembered.
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There's a soundtrack?! Wantwantwant :P :o
I have recently . . . acquired . . . Plato's Timaeus and Critias (no relation to poster), though I haven't read them yet. Mirikon's points about the Atlantis legend/myth are good.
On the other side, you can sucessfully gain those "facts" by playing Indiana Jones: The fate of Atlantis a few years back. no need for serious legwork on this topic
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People tend to forget that Plato was a philosopher, not a historian. He didn't write about real civilizations, he wrote about hypothetical ones to prove some point he was trying to make. Like the theoretical nation of "Utopia" from Plato's Republic. It's only in modern times that people have started believing that Atlantis was something that actually existed; the ancient Greeks didn't. (http://books.google.com/books?id=A3H_51913RkC&pg=PA124&dq=%22It+is+only+in+modern+times+that+people+have+taken+the+Atlantis+story+seriously%3B+no+one+did+so+in+antiquity%22&hl=en&ei=69teTICbN4H_8AbPtrS0DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22modern%20times%22&f=false)
It's also worth noting that ancient Greek philosophers were not exactly authoritative sources on much of anything, since they never actually tested their theories to gain any sort of experimental data, just made stuff up and then went, "That sounds cool. Let's go with that." These were the same guys who thought that heavier objects fell faster (a notion which persisted for thousands of years until Galileo dropped two different-sized cannonballs off the Leaning Tower of Piza), that disease was caused by unbalanced humors and that the treatment for a fever was bloodletting (killing millions in Europe through medical incompetence until mere centuries ago, because the "doctors" of the time studied ancient philosophy instead of actual medicine), and that camels store water in their humps (they don't, they store fat).
So I wouldn't count on Plato having any insider knowledge on any lost island civilizations. (And a lost continent is just impossible with what we know of plate tectonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28lost_continent%29#Criticisms).)
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Plato said his knowledge of Ancient Athens and Atlantis came from Solon, three centuries before him, who learned about them during a trip in Egypt. According to Plato's writings, Atlantis lied near the Strait of Gibraltar (the "Pillars of Hercules"), near the Atlantic Ocean and the Atlas Moutains, and conquered Europe and Africa around 9500 BC. That's Third Age to you, about eight centuries before the Awakening and some 2,000 years before Thera foundation, CLMC/PITM (assuming constant-length-mana-cycles and peak-in-the-middle). So, if he was talking about ED/SR Thera, he obviously got some facts wrong.
Mythical Crete and Atlantis share a Poseidon patronage, but I guess, so would have any powerful nation based off an island. In Greek mythology, bulls are often associated with Crete (the most famous example is the Minotaur). In the Odyssey, Homer also mentions as much 90 cities in Crete, which is not consistent with Crete as he would have known it in the 8th century BC (as far as our own modern archaeological knowledge goes). This suggests the Greeks still had around the 8th or 7th century BC some knowledge of the so-called "Minoan civilization" (the name was given in the 20th century in reference to King Minos, not the other way round) and its bulls worshiping thing, some three or four centuries after its fall (circa 1100 BC), eight centuries after the end of its golden age (circa 1400 BC). The Santorini eruption is a bit older though, probably around 1600 BC in real life.
For a useful comparison, if it wasn't for Earthdawn sourcebooks and fan sites, Plato and the Internet should know as much about Barsaive, the Blood Wood, the Kingdom of Throal and the War against the Theran empire, than they do about the history of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture), whose geographical extent and dates perfectly match.
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Not to pour water on this grease fire, but just because something was called a continent in ancient times doesn't mean it conforms with our view of a continent. A large island, well off to sea, might get called a continent, especially if someone was looking to pump up their story, as people are wont to do. And islands can (and have) been wiped off the map before. And if an alchera could sink most of Los Angeles, who is to say what could happen to Thera, center of the world's most powerful magical empire?
And if Thera just happened to have been sent... elsewhere, it would hardly have been the first city to have had that happen. Parlainth was sent to the metaplanes during the Scourge, in hopes of hiding from the Horrors in a pinched off pocket of astral space. It didn't work, but there you go.
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And Tehran was sent to the special hell courtesy of Aden.
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And Tehran was sent to the special hell courtesy of Aden.
CanRay needed some company. ;)
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And Tehran was sent to the special hell courtesy of Aden.
CanRay needed some company. ;)
Different Special Hell.
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yeah canray has his own specific special hell, full of pissed off demonic unicorns and gun-control nuts and anti-gamer nuts and a gaming store that only sells games designed by illiterate Swahili lion hunters, no guns, no good gamers stores, and no sane enough to deal with people.
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yeah canray has his own specific special hell, full of pissed off demonic unicorns and gun-control nuts and anti-gamer nuts and a gaming store that only sells games designed by illiterate Swahili lion hunters, no guns, no good gamers stores, and no sane enough to deal with people.
And one group of gamers, that he always seems to be GMing for, and never gets the chance to play.
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yeah canray has his own specific special hell, full of pissed off demonic unicorns and gun-control nuts and anti-gamer nuts and a gaming store that only sells games designed by illiterate Swahili lion hunters, no guns, no good gamers stores, and no sane enough to deal with people.
And one group of gamers, that he always seems to be GMing for, and never gets the chance to play.
Sounds like real life... Or am I already in hell?
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well that is one possibility,,,,,,,,,,,
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yeah canray has his own specific special hell, full of pissed off demonic unicorns and gun-control nuts and anti-gamer nuts and a gaming store that only sells games designed by illiterate Swahili lion hunters, no guns, no good gamers stores, and no sane enough to deal with people.
And one group of gamers, that he always seems to be GMing for, and never gets the chance to play.
Sounds like real life... Or am I already in hell?
You could be in 'Hell on Earth'.
Though there is one case where that might not be so bad (mainly if it's the Deadlands setting by that name--the only version I've had interest in by the way).
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yeah canray has his own specific special hell, full of pissed off demonic unicorns and gun-control nuts and anti-gamer nuts and a gaming store that only sells games designed by illiterate Swahili lion hunters, no guns, no good gamers stores, and no sane enough to deal with people.
And one group of gamers, that he always seems to be GMing for, and never gets the chance to play.
Sounds like real life... Or am I already in hell?
You could be in 'Hell on Earth'.
Well, he is in Canada...
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Poor CanRay. Abused by everyone on the boards.
Oh well. Time to go refill his Special Hell's pool with Africanized honey bees. :D
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We only abuse him for the same reason we abuse the Chicago Cubs. Next game, he'll get to play! Next game!
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There's a soundtrack?! Wantwantwant :P :o
I have recently . . . acquired . . . Plato's Timaeus and Critias (no relation to poster), though I haven't read them yet. Mirikon's points about the Atlantis legend/myth are good.
On the other side, you can sucessfully gain those "facts" by playing Indiana Jones: The fate of Atlantis a few years back. no need for serious legwork on this topic
I did the serious legwork. I was going to write a whole Roleplaying Game based on my research. I found a lot of strange stuff. I had to practically teach myself Atlanteology in order to create a plausible setting.
I read Quest for the Lost Civilization and Forbidden Archaeology. I followed up on a lot of the Out of Place Artifacts. I came to this conclusions after doing the research:
- ]There was a Lost Civilization during the Age of Leo (12,000-10,000 B.C.) and part of the Age of Cancer.
- They had Technology that rivaled ours.
- There are strange artifacts that are collected, catalogued, and put away.
- People's lives back in the Age of Leo were not much different from ours. They had the same clothing styles, hair styles, etc.
- Plato was a philosopher: but that doesn't mean he wasn't a scientist. He got some details wrong though, but it still makes for a great RPG. I usually consider him to be the grandfather of Science Fiction.
So, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Plus ça change . . .
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I don't know what got me smited a 15th time. But i am very passionate about this subject, and I have done the research. Atlanteology is about looking at other evidence of our Ancient Past, not following the usual line. It's a different way of interpreting early Prehistory. Now I don't subscribe to the Ancient Aliens theories, although I come across them a lot in my ongoing research (some of them are very plausible).
My research has taken me to the heavens now, and I found more and more evidence that Immanuel Velikovsky was correct.
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Now, talking about lost ancient civilizations/continents, we are talking here just about half of the story.
There is Atlantis, and there is also Mu/Lemuria...strange that there is nothing related to this in SR/ED universe
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That's one of the points I was making Sichr. There are practically dozens of lost civilizations, reported in mythology and history. A lot of people lump all of that stuff onto Atlantis, because they hear about it the most.
Now, one thing to point out is the concept of drift. As stories are retold, they change slightly over time, until the original tale is lost almost beyond recognition. A small scale example of this would be to get a good size group of people together (say 20 or so) and play Telephone. The first person whispers a message in the ear of the person to their left, and that person repeats it to the person on their left, and so on, until it gets to the last person in the circle, who says whatever they were just told out loud. The result is usually hilarious, and rarely resembles the original message. The same happens in stories, especially oral histories. And even after the story is written, drift still occurs. Even in famous books, you see drift. Look at the Bible, for instance. If you went to Barnes & Noble and picked up a bible off the shelf, I guarantee it would not have the same language as the bible Gutenberg printed. And that is in perhaps the best known book of all time!
The point is that the tale we all have of Atlantis, where the advanced civilization got too arrogant, and were destroyed as their island sank beneath the waves after earthquakes and volcanoes, could easily have drifted from whatever the 'truth' actually is. Moreover, things like dates could have drifted as well.
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Prince vs. Queen question
In my opinion, their will not be a Queen, in either Tir, until ONE of them is considered the cultural HEart of Elven Culture. The leader of THAT nation will be the Queen or King. It is mentioned that both nations actively try to be different after they are established. Perhaps to make the selection more meaningful.
just a thought.
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Actually, I would say the reason there's no queen of elven peoples now is because there isn't an elven culture now, and the immortal elves can't 'come out' about it without going into a whole lot of stuff about the Fourth World, among other things. As for why the two Tirs are so different, I'd have to go with more than just 'competing for the soul of elvenkind'.
Tir Nan Og plays HEAVILY off the old Irish legends of the Sidhe and the Faerie lands. As such, it is steeped in mysticism and an 'Old World' flavor. Plus, being an island, it is relatively easy to seal off unwanted cultural influences if you want to.
Tir Tairngir, on the other hand, is in Oregon. They don't have that same kind of heritage to play off of, so they made it less of a fairy tale, and more of a mystique, which, for all its fantasy flair, has been done more than once since the middle ages. Those paladins in the flashy plate armor with the gleaming swords. The magical firepower they displayed when they seceeded. Having a dragon on their ruling council. Military parades. The Right of Challenge. All of these things are bread and circuses. It is the best way for a regime surrounded by other nations with vastly different cultures to maintain an identity and keep a tight control on their people at the same time.
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Tir Nan Og plays HEAVILY off the old Irish legends of the Sidhe and the Faerie lands. As such, it is steeped in mysticism and an 'Old World' flavor. Plus, being an island, it is relatively easy to seal off unwanted cultural influences if you want to.
They also had the Veil going for them, for a long time. Magical isolation backed up their geographical seclusion, helping out.
Tir Tairngir, on the other hand, is in Oregon. They don't have that same kind of heritage to play off of, so they made it less of a fairy tale, and more of a mystique, which, for all its fantasy flair, has been done more than once since the middle ages. Those paladins in the flashy plate armor with the gleaming swords. The magical firepower they displayed when they seceeded. Having a dragon on their ruling council. Military parades. The Right of Challenge. All of these things are bread and circuses. It is the best way for a regime surrounded by other nations with vastly different cultures to maintain an identity and keep a tight control on their people at the same time.
It's Fantasyland, from a Disney theme park, really.
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If I remember right certain titles confers special powers on the person that holds the title in the 4th world (mentioned in the Aztlan book). I have to guess that the Elf Queen title gives some sweet perks but has some special ritual drawbacks/prerequisites/demands that go along with it. I don't know if these powers have ever been given game stats though. So this is what I think. Sósan Naerain (who may have been the Blood Queen) knew about but after 5000 years of freedom didn't want the drawbacks of being Queen but wanted the power back. Perhaps by spreading around the perks and drawbacks among a larger group (the Council of Princes) it may be easier to live with.
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Actually, I would say the reason there's no queen of elven peoples now is because there isn't an elven culture now, and the immortal elves can't 'come out' about it without going into a whole lot of stuff about the Fourth World, among other things. As for why the two Tirs are so different, I'd have to go with more than just 'competing for the soul of elvenkind'.
Tir Nan Og plays HEAVILY off the old Irish legends of the Sidhe and the Faerie lands. As such, it is steeped in mysticism and an 'Old World' flavor. Plus, being an island, it is relatively easy to seal off unwanted cultural influences if you want to.
Tir Tairngir, on the other hand, is in Oregon. They don't have that same kind of heritage to play off of, so they made it less of a fairy tale, and more of a mystique, which, for all its fantasy flair, has been done more than once since the middle ages. Those paladins in the flashy plate armor with the gleaming swords. The magical firepower they displayed when they seceeded. Having a dragon on their ruling council. Military parades. The Right of Challenge. All of these things are bread and circuses. It is the best way for a regime surrounded by other nations with vastly different cultures to maintain an identity and keep a tight control on their people at the same time.
I suspect that it's a continuation of the old elven split in how the Wheel of Life works
Sa'mistisha and Dae'mistisha
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I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???
The high number of elven birth in Ireland suggests there was an Elven nation there during the Fourth Age. So we can imagine it was among the realms ruled by the Blood Wood before the Scourge (one argument against this is that, if Serethea, modern-day Latvia, was in the Western Kingdoms, it somehow suggests the elves weren't aware or didn't care about places west of them).
However, Tir na nOg Seelie Court is different from the Blood Wood Elven Court, since it includes not only elves, but also spirits, pixies, leshies and the likes, who gather on some sort of metaplane. Maybe the island wasn't an elven nation, but the realm of "fairies". Elves and the Elven Court would have moved over there late in the Fourth Age and the fairies offered them those refugees a shelter. That could explain there seems to be far more fairies than elves at the Seelie Court.
If I remember correctly there was a Windling tribe in Wyrm Wood who also underwent the Ritual of Thorns. There were certainly elementals (which would be spirits) and likely nethermances would have been summoning other things as well. It wouldn't surprise me to find that a lot of effort went into finding out about the ritual Parlainth used and the elves did something similar while retaining gates...
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In light of RedBrick's closure (http://redbrickllc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=659), and the impending emergence of FASA 2.0, it was noted (http://roleplayerschronicle.com/?p=26201) that, for their purposes, Shadowrun is no longer considered to be the Sixth World as "their" Earthdawn has it.
So, where does that leave the Fourth World as Shadowrun might have seen it? If FASA 2.0's new edition of Earthdawn is now considered to be part of a separate timeline (or IP), can Shadowrun still point to the version of Earthdawn that had once been published by old FASA as a part of its own history; or is there no longer an official word on what Catalyst's take on the Fourth World had been?
(As in, do we have to more or less assume that, whatever the Fourth World was from Catalyst's point of view, it might have "kind of sort of been like" old FASA's Earthdawn setting; even if it is no longer officially connected to the "new" Earthdawn?)
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My understanding is that everything published by FASA pre-Dragons Sourcebook (the unfinished ebook being a grey area) is canon. The additions made to the 2004 LRG Dragons SB and everything else from RedBrick and Living Room Games are definitely not. At least as far as I know. This makes my life immensely easier, BTW.
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So, essentially, the new set of alternate timelines branch off just prior to that ebook (give or take); and go in their own directions thereafter?
I wonder if that makes for three semi-related alternate timelines, now:
*one for Shadowrun and its old-FASA background,
*a second for the current Earthdawn's past and future, as will be developed by FASA 2.0,
*and a third for Equinox, which has its own IP holder at the moment (though I'm a little vague on whether or not it had originally been intended to be RedBrick-Earthdawn's future, or if it was always intended to be a new timeline in and of itself.)
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I'd say that RedBrick rulebooks before the big break (Carsten Damm and Kathy Schad leaving RB) can easily be considered canon whenever you take the fourth-sixth age connections into account. The old RedBrick team didn't do anything drastic, they just refurbished some old material, and created the 'eastern sourcebook'. The Kratas book is also a nice piece of work, and since it was written in the Earthdawn Classic (first edition in new clothes and make-up), it's still very close to the old FASA ED.
Equinox was supposed to be looking up to Shadowrun a little bit, if I remember correctly - there were such hints, but with the old RB forums being swallowed by the void, I couldn't pull that specific hint out without a metaplanar quest. And I'm a bit drained at the moment...
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I'd say that RedBrick rulebooks before the big break (Carsten Damm and Kathy Schad leaving RB) can easily be considered canon whenever you take the fourth-sixth age connections into account. The old RedBrick team didn't do anything drastic, they just refurbished some old material, and created the 'eastern sourcebook'. The Kratas book is also a nice piece of work, and since it was written in the Earthdawn Classic (first edition in new clothes and make-up), it's still very close to the old FASA ED.
Equinox was supposed to be looking up to Shadowrun a little bit, if I remember correctly - there were such hints, but with the old RB forums being swallowed by the void, I couldn't pull that specific hint out without a metaplanar quest. And I'm a bit drained at the moment...
Next time I submerge I'll take a trip to the Archives and pull the data out for you. You're paying for it, right? ;)
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Hell yes. In freshly grinded bust-a-move parts. :P
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Seattle is my turf, so calling out hotels that offer under-the-table services such as these is not something I’m inclined to do. I will say that we are home to one of the most well-known dominatrixes in the world. Her client list reads like an Archconservative National Convention speaker list. Mistress Alachia is very discreet, professional, and well worth the money. I refer my clients to her all the time, and they always come back satisfied.
I wonder...
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Oh, I can perfectly imagine the story. A mysterious, wealthy elve from Tir Tairngire that regularly came to Seattle for a private session. He insisted on calling her "Alachia" and do that thing with thorns glued to the skin. He was by far her best client when she started her career, and the name stuck.
It only lefts me wondering... Surehand? Oakforest? Ehran?
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It only lefts me wondering... Surehand? Oakforest? Ehran?
Jenna Ni'Fiarra? Harlequin?
What? If we're gonna speculate, then let's make it good!
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Frosty.
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Frosty and Ehran?
Hmm. Maybe I need to stop watching so much anime? Nah. C'mon, Japan, give me more horriblegreat ideas! ;)
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IMO Frosty was born after Earthdawn era, during down-cycle
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Frosty was born approx 2030. She was still pretty young in 2050
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Brightlight. We know that he's the supergeek, and though it is the age of the geek, he's a snotty, smug, oblivious-to-both-others-and-consequences prick of a geek. He'd definitely have to pay... ;)
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I'm wondering when we're going to see IE's buying out a certain piece of land in south Europe...
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If you're talking about Wyrm Wood, then I believe someone said elsewhere on this forum that the reason they haven't done so already is that one of the translations of Cherynoble is "Worm Wood". You do the math.
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Homeland + Undervalued Real Estate - Oh God The Radiation Burns - My Mutant Children = Oh Hell No.
That math?
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Yep, that about sums it up. Oh, and of course there's always the possibility that it might force a head to head with Alamais, since the elves trying to re-establish the Elven Court in his old home is probably the only thing that could get him to take a break from being a thorn in his brother's side.
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If you're talking about Wyrm Wood, then I believe someone said elsewhere on this forum that the reason they haven't done so already is that one of the translations of Cherynoble is "Worm Wood". You do the math.
Doesn't compute. Places with similar Names aren't the same when you apply Pattern magic. Especially since the real, corrupted Blood Wood pattern is still there, and most IE's (with the exception of Harlequinn, and maybe a few others) are bound to it by the Ritual of Thorns. Again - they're bound to Blood Wood not Wyrm Wood...
Same with Alamaise, his connection to the Wyrm Wood pattern is blocked by the fact that it's not being Named this way now. He was all for ReNaming it back then, over the elves charred bodies. I doubt that changed through the ages.
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Names don't just come out of nowhere. And at some point the Ritual of Thorns clearly was undone, since none of the IEs have thorns growing out of their sides, and they aren't compelled to return to the wood after a year and a day. And, at best guess from what else we know of the region, Barsaive would have been in the general area of the Black Sea. The fact that sometimes there is a 'cultural memory' of things that we no longer understand, but realize were important, once. Just in Shadowrun/Earthdawn lore, you have plenty of examples of this, such as the fact that Dragons and metahumans appear much like people always thought they might, or ideas such as Atlantis sinking beneath the waves (those Orichalcum pillars supporting Thera gave out eventually), or even tales of spirits and dragons and the like that sounded like fairy tales. Even in real life, we have these kinds of cultural memories. The history of today becomes the legends of tomorrow and the myths of the day after. To give an example, take the Battle of Thermoplye. The story has grown in the telling, and certainly the battle was nothing like what you saw in 300, but elements remain true. In another two thousand years, who knows what we will remember of that battle?
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Names don't just come out of nowhere. And at some point the Ritual of Thorns clearly was undone, since none of the IEs have thorns growing out of their sides, and they aren't compelled to return to the wood after a year and a day.
I don't know much about the ritual of thorn, or Earthdawn lore, but I read theory somewhere that certain IE's don't have the thorns because the mana levels weren't high enough, that might have just been someones speculation in the forums here or in some fluff, I really can't remember. Though the surge quality of the bone spikes seems to lend some credit to the theory. As a bit of a devils advocate, do we know that the IE's in question aren't returning to the wood yearly?
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If you're talking about Wyrm Wood, then I believe someone said elsewhere on this forum that the reason they haven't done so already is that one of the translations of Cherynoble is "Worm Wood". You do the math.
Doesn't compute. Places with similar Names aren't the same when you apply Pattern magic. Especially since the real, corrupted Blood Wood pattern is still there, and most IE's (with the exception of Harlequinn, and maybe a few others) are bound to it by the Ritual of Thorns. Again - they're bound to Blood Wood not Wyrm Wood...
Same with Alamaise, his connection to the Wyrm Wood pattern is blocked by the fact that it's not being Named this way now. He was all for ReNaming it back then, over the elves charred bodies. I doubt that changed through the ages.
Actually...look for the reference on Wormwood forest - Red Forest. Things gets pretty close ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Forest