Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Smoo on <01-12-12/2332:52>

Title: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-12-12/2332:52>
I wanted to get a better understanding of how to hack the matrix so I wrote a step by step decision tree guide for myself.  I would really appreciate it if folks would read it and offer me feedback as far as my understanding and interpretation of the rules. If there are cool tricks for hacking that I missed and should include please let me know. My hope is that this could be something useful for players and GMs who have a hard time putting everything together in the right order from the books alone..  Please find download link below. And thanks for reading.

Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Kat9 on <01-13-12/0033:42>
Hey as a newbie wanting to play a hacker, you just helped me a WHOLE lot. +1 for you Sir and or Madam!
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Seraph on <01-13-12/0249:15>
As above. +1
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: JustADude on <01-13-12/0304:05>
Another +1 from me. You're just racking 'em up, aren't ya?  ;)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: rasmusnicolaj on <01-13-12/0544:32>
Yes +1 for the work.

I would suggest making your headlines into the format type headline and then hyperlink to the relevant sections in 'prerequisites' and 'next step.'

Rasmus
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: UmaroVI on <01-13-12/0941:15>
One thing you seem to be missing: in order to hack into a node, you either need to already be subscribed to it (ie, if it will let you make a user account, you can log into that, and then hack yourself an admin account), or be within mutual signal range. See SR4A p235.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: tzizimine on <01-13-12/1039:34>
Good work...


Let me compare this to my cheat sheet and I'll detail any differences I find
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: theKernel on <01-13-12/1402:06>
The only thing I'm sad about is you don't have one for 'mancers ;)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Kat9 on <01-13-12/1618:18>
The only thing I'm sad about is you don't have one for 'mancers ;)

Ooh ohh I can do that one.

1) Summon Sprite
2) Faceroll

heheh!

I agree, please a technomancer one!
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-13-12/1748:15>
I added hyperlinks and addressed UmaroIV's concern among other changes.  I'll get to technomancer/spite stuff next.  Thanks for the positive feedback.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: theKernel on <01-13-12/1758:24>
No, thank you for making this stuff
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: UmaroVI on <01-13-12/2207:46>
You should note under Mass Attack that the node rolls to spot everyone involved, not just the primary hacker.

You should probably note as an alternative to Disconnect that you can Jam (or Jam on the Fly) yourself offline, which will get you dumpshocked but will also get you out if you are Black IC'd.

Can you source this? "With full admin privileges use a complex matrix action Terminate Connection (Computer + Edit) (1) to disconnect all enemy users. It takes an additional full combat turn for the connection to be terminated." I think you can take an Issue Command to make the node try to Terminate Connection, but this is dumb since you can also just delete all the accounts but yours or what-have-you.

Also, in general, I would be concerned that you are giving most people the wrong impression of what you want to do to hack. For example, if you have an admin account, you don't want to cutesy around with disarming someone's Biofeedback Filter; you want to revoke their account privileges so that they can't do anything.

Also, a sometimes-useful alternate way of hacking in is to get a public account (either by just logging in, if they give them out, or hacking on the fly), and then use Hacking+Edit to make yourself a legitimate account.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-13-12/2304:36>
Quote
You should note under Mass Attack that the node rolls to spot everyone involved, not just the primary hacker.

Will do

Quote
You should probably note as an alternative to Disconnect that you can Jam (or Jam on the Fly) yourself offline, which will get you dumpshocked but will also get you out if you are Black IC'd.

Will do

Quote
Can you source this? "With full admin privileges use a complex matrix action Terminate Connection (Computer + Edit) (1) to disconnect all enemy users. It takes an additional full combat turn for the connection to be terminated." I think you can take an Issue Command to make the node try to Terminate Connection, but this is dumb since you can also just delete all the accounts but yours or what-have-you.

Quote
Also, in general, I would be concerned that you are giving most people the wrong impression of what you want to do to hack. For example, if you have an admin account, you don't want to cutesy around with disarming someone's Biofeedback Filter; you want to revoke their account privileges so that they can't do anything.

Top right of UN 101

The central focus of most DOS attacks is a node’s active account list; by editing the list a hacker can sever a connection (see
Terminate Connection, p. 223, SR4). A hacker can also instruct the node to block future access connection requests from a particular
node or access ID (or a range of nodes/access IDs), locking the target out. To accomplish this, the hacker must have access to the node and must make a Computer + Edit (1) Test if they have security or admin privileges; or a Hacking + Edit (2) Test if he does
not. Accounts may also be deleted (if active, the user’s connection must be terminated frst) with a successful Sofware + Editing (1)
Test, assuming you have security or admin privileges; Hacking + Edit (2) Test if you do not.

This whole paragraph is poorly written and unfortunatly covers critical rules.  I assumed the first test to cover terminate connection and the second to cover account deletion.  You could argue the first test covers "locking the target out" but then what is the difference between that and account deletion?

I interpret the last part of the paragraph to mean you cant delete an account of someone who is online.  That is why i brought up blackhammer for removing VR spiders.

Quote
Also, a sometimes-useful alternate way of hacking in is to get a public account (either by just logging in, if they give them out, or hacking on the fly), and then use Hacking+Edit to make yourself a legitimate account.

Public accounts don't have subscrptions.  I think I mentioned user accounts in the Establish Subscription block but maybe I'll go into that a bit more .

I love your character Archetypes by the way.  Thanks for those.



Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-13-12/2351:43>
Quote
Also, in general, I would be concerned that you are giving most people the wrong impression of what you want to do to hack

I definitely take this to heart as it is the opposite of what I want and I worry it will get worse as I add more options.  Would splitting the Node Control section into Node Control Critical and Node Control Situational be a good solution?  Maybe do the same with the Data Manipulation Section?
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: UmaroVI on <01-14-12/0112:16>
Yeah, splitting off situational parts might be a good idea.

Re: UW 101, it really is badly phrased. There are three different things: you can edit the active account list to terminate their connection (this boots them, but does not remove the account), you can ban people (won't do anything if they are currently on, and doesn't remove the account - it just blocks nodes/access IDs), and delete accounts (which requires they not be online, and does delete the account). I think you are thinking there are only two things here.

Why you use each of them:

The first is by far most useful - you kick people out. They can log back in, mind you, but this buys you time to...

2) Ban their Node/Access ID - this will stop people with that AID/from that node from getting on even to a different account
3) Delete their account - this will stop anyone from getting on that account even with a different Access ID or from a different node

Note that neither of these on their own terminates connections. You have to take an action to kick them by editing the active account list first. The reason both exist, not just one, is that they do slightly different things. If you delete a hacker's account, they can make a new one. If you AID/node ban someone, but leave their account, they can change their access ID/use a different node and then log back in (or another person can log into the same account).
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Kat9 on <01-14-12/0730:55>
Sticky this thread please.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-14-12/1406:59>
I updated it again. I'm not sure if i understand the jam on the fly emergency disconnect, so let me know if its wrong.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: UmaroVI on <01-14-12/1527:04>
Yes, you're right about Jamming on the Fly (it's also important to note Technos can jam on the fly like this to kick themselves offline in an emergency).

For a Jammer, you actually need Jammer rating > signal rating. Note, though, that you almost always can just Jam on the Fly if you want to boot yourself (or do something even simpler, like turn your wireless off, unplug, etc). I mention it mostly as an alternative if for some strange reason you can't use Jamming on the Fly with your commlink (or yourself, as a technomancer), or I guess maybe if you wanted to jam someone else offline when they got KO'd by Black IC.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-14-12/1835:58>
I added the technomancer stuff in  I think this covers most stuff directly hacking related.  Let me know if there is any more requests or fixes.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: theKernel on <01-14-12/1908:12>
Is it the first link now?
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-14-12/1924:53>
I think so.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: theKernel on <01-14-12/1928:14>
Got it, one more suggestion could be talking about threading and stuff like that but I like it
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-15-12/1556:54>
I could see adding in some more general technomancer/sprite stuff, but I'm not honestly not as knowledgeable about some of the rules and their common interpretations.
For example:  Compiled spites have to accompany a technomancer, registered sprites do not. Can a registered sprite sustain complex forms and assist operations from the resonance or do they need to be in the same node as the technomancer? How you interpret this is the crux of Sprite assisted hacking. 
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: wizard_of_ozzy on <01-15-12/1602:41>
I could see adding in some more general technomancer/sprite stuff, but I'm not honestly not as knowledgeable about some of the rules and their common interpretations.
For example:  Compiled spites have to accompany a technomancer, registered sprites do not. Can a registered sprite sustain complex forms and assist operations from the resonance or do they need to be in the same node as the technomancer? How you interpret this is the crux of Sprite assisted hacking.

I always thought the sprites had to be "inside" a technomancer's bio-node to sustain complex forms, but not in the node that the technomancer's persona is in.

Edit: Of course, that only works if you consider a technomancer's bio-node as part of the Resonance at large, so I bio-node can hold things that are made up of Resonance but nothing else.

On another note, great job putting this file together! This is exactly what I needed.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-15-12/1638:52>
@wizard  That actually makes a lot of sense.  I just don't like technomancers geting more goodies :-[  I was pleasently surprised when UmaroIV pointed out needing mutual signal range to hack since technomancers have such poor signal and its really expensive for them to upgrade it.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: wizard_of_ozzy on <01-15-12/1700:11>
I think that's only if it's not a publicly accessible node. So if you're trying to hack a corp's matrix you'd go to it's public nexus, then while there hack yourself an admin account and then go about the restricted areas. But if you're trying to hack John Doe's commlink while it's in hidden mode, then yeah, you gotta get in close. But sprites (and agents) can piggy-back on other people's commlinks (I think) and use their signal range. So hack Joe the Janitor's commlink, then while he's cleaning his bosses office, have your sprite do the dirty work. Also, satellite links increase your signal rating up to 8, so that's another way to get around that.

Or at least I think so, based on my knowledge of the rules.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-15-12/1715:21>
Public accounts do not come with subscriptions, so you can't hack from them.  I'll try to make this more clear in the guide.  I'n not sure about the sprite/ independant agent signal  piggybacking, but I'll certainly look into it.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: wizard_of_ozzy on <01-15-12/1733:42>
Really? I thought all types of accounts (Public, User, Security, and Admin) required a subscription but only User, Security, and Admin required authorization. If not, then how do people hack remotely via VR?

From SR4A, page. 224, Subscriptions
Quote
To connect to a node (aside from the one on which your persona is running ), you must  subscribe to it. A subscription is a two-way communications link through the Matrix. This is a steady link that can be maintained for extended periods of time. You must subscribe to a node if you want to “travel” to it in the Matrix, which means that you must be able to either connect with it directly (with a wired connection, or when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through the Matrix network. Subscribing to a node is a Complex Action ( Log On, p. 231). When you log on to a node, your icon appears there.

SR4A, page. 225, Access Accounts
Quote
When you log on to a node, you do so at a certain access level, which is defined by your account. There are four types of accounts, public, user, security, and  admin, in order of least to most access. Except for public accounts, access to an account level requires authorization, which is described in the next section, Authorization and Authentication. A public account is a sort of “foyer” for a node. When logging on without any authentication, you get a public account. Public accounts usually allow the user to access public information about the node, and could also allow a small amount of functionality, like the ability to order food, shop, fill out forms, etc., depending on the node’s purpose. Most retail outlets, malls, restaurants, and other nodes open to the public offer this account to customers.

Unwired, page. 55, Actions Needing Subscriptions
Quote
Accessing a node

All emphases are my own. From that, it seems that all public accounts require a subscription too. Though I could be wrong, I'm still learning (even though I've been playing for about a year :) )
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-15-12/1758:31>
The relevant rules for subsciptions and accounts is UN 52, Subscriptions and hacking is SR4A 235.   Authentication and Authorization are fluff as hacking goes around them.  I've been doing it wrong by accident for months so don't feel bad.  You can hack in VR but not very far as mutual signal range is tough to come by. I suppose VR is meant mostly for spiders and not so much for Runners.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: wizard_of_ozzy on <01-15-12/1813:06>
Oh man, if that's true then I've been messing up for months too.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-15-12/2120:23>
I added some more technomancer stuff.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Kat9 on <01-20-12/0028:03>
Am I missing where probing a target is listed?

Slow hack is sometimes good hack!
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <01-20-12/0521:13>
Yeah, splitting off situational parts might be a good idea.
...

The first is by far most useful - you kick people out. They can log back in, mind you, but this buys you time to...

2) Ban their Node/Access ID - this will stop people with that AID/from that node from getting on even to a different account
3) Delete their account - this will stop anyone from getting on that account even with a different Access ID or from a different node

Note that neither of these on their own terminates connections. You have to take an action to kick them by editing the active account list first. The reason both exist, not just one, is that they do slightly different things. If you delete a hacker's account, they can make a new one. If you AID/node ban someone, but leave their account, they can change their access ID/use a different node and then log back in (or another person can log into the same account).

Yes, you're right about Jamming on the Fly (it's also important to note Technos can jam on the fly like this to kick themselves offline in an emergency).

For a Jammer, you actually need Jammer rating > signal rating. Note, though, that you almost always can just Jam on the Fly if you want to boot yourself (or do something even simpler, like turn your wireless off, unplug, etc). I mention it mostly as an alternative if for some strange reason you can't use Jamming on the Fly with your commlink (or yourself, as a technomancer), or I guess maybe if you wanted to jam someone else offline when they got KO'd by Black IC.

Note that both those things:

Deleting account - like when Alert response is Terminate connection, or when Admin/hacker terminates connection by commanding node to Terminate connection to certain ID or delete active connection manualy

Jamming on the fly with your own commlink - When used for Jamming on fly commlink commlink is unavailable for anything elese so it is also disconnected from Matrix

Both of those things lead to dumpshock. In the first case for tone whose connection was terminated, since that is not proper Log Off action, the second case because every subscription from the commlink/node to another nodes is severed, also without propper Log Off action.

EDIT: i forgot to say...beautifull work there Smoo :)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Smoo on <01-20-12/1855:17>
@Kat9  Probing the target is incleded in the Hack actions.
@Sichr I included your changes

I also made a few more fixes and additions. Notably I added Remote targeting and Rush Widget actions.  I also added opposed tests for some of the compromised node activities.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Danmor on <03-05-12/0554:30>
First of all, kudos for the very nice write-up. It includes a couple of things I've been wondering about for some time now.

But I still have an issue with the subscriptions. I looked at your references and I couldn't find the point where it says that a public account does not take up a subscription.
I see the rules as inconsistent here.
Unwired, page 55:
Quote from: Unwired55
In the case of full AR and VR connections, a simple data request is not enough. In these an other cases a fast, two-way, maintained connection called a subscription is needed.
Also Unwired (page 53):
Quote from: Unwired53
From your persona interface, you may access other nodes. If you are simply making a comcall or data request, accessing a public site or profile, or otherwise connecting to a public account, no subscription or login is required—your access ID suffices. If you are logging in to a user/security/admin account, communicating with encryption, controlling an agent/drone, or making some other bandwidth-intensive connection, a subscription is required.
So if I enter a node in VR via a public account, page 55 tells me I need a subscription while the sidebar on page 53 tells me I don't need one.

Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-05-12/0559:41>
making a commcall or datarequest doesnt require subscription because you dont have to enter the node. Once you need to entr the node, you need subscription. Works OK?
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Voshay on <03-05-12/2106:37>
Noob hacker question here.  When calculating your dice pool for a hacking program that is associated with a skill do you use the skill dice pool or just the ranks in the skill?

ex.  Exploit is listed with the associated skill Hacking.  So when calculating your dice pool is it

Exploit (rating) + Hacking (ranks)  or
Exploit (rating) + Hacking (ranks) + Logic


Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: KarmaInferno on <03-05-12/2110:06>
Just Hacking + Exploit.

The program more or less replaces your attribute in most Matrix actions.



-k
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-06-12/0038:56>
and possibly hot/VR modification
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-08-12/1220:51>
I've got questions about subscriptions too, but let's see if this works:

A "public" account --really just an Access Level -- is available on some (not all) nodes.  These are nodes that may be routing public traffic to other nodes.

You do not need to be in MSR of some distant node -- there only needs to be a string of these routing public-access-enabled nodes between you and the destination, and you get a subscription at the destination node.

SOME nodes, such as the node at the local Starbucks, actually have something you can usefully DO in their public-access-enabled area, such as the "Make your own Soy Latte" menu, so you can order-to-go without bugging a meat body about it, or being on-site to use their AR system.  I think the example in the book is booking your flight at the airport node.  THIS requires a subscription, because you're actually communicating with this node (i.e. it is your destination node).

I look at it this way:

You have a persona.  Your persona (generally) is only on your commlink.

Then you spawn "icons" (subscriptions) that hook-up on destination nodes on the web.  These route through publicly available public-access-nodes -- whether in a streetpost, or at a megacorp's front foyer.  It does not subscribe to these nodes, it is simple data traffic at that point, and splits up into bitty packets of data until it reassembles (think Star Trek transporter) at the destination node.

You spawn these "destination node icons" whether in AR or in VR.  On your end you are either swapping between these destination nodes in VR OR you are viewing different "windows" in your AR interactions.  Your commlink has a maximum number of subscriptions (windows or icons) that you can have "open" at once.  That's how many "destination nodes" you can have a connection to at once.  So you can be logged in at Dictionary.Node, Starbucks.Node, Sea-TacAirport.node, Ares Macrotechnology Personal Defense Ordering System.Node, etc. all at once, whether you're viewing them "in first person" via VR OR you're fiddling in floating windows that you can move around within your AR field of vision.

That help?  Hope so....
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-08-12/1235:56>
Here are 2 of my matrix-questions:

Does a technomancer's "signal" rating follow him/her through the matrix, or are they "borrowing" the signal rating of nodes they visit?  Frankly, it makes no Resonance sense for the latter, but it probably IS the signal of the node they visit...

Does response work like Signal?  i.e. as the character's icons are subscribed to different nodes, does initiative change per the load/response of the node?  I think the answer is no, because the persona is still on the commlink... -- but then doesn't a slow node slow down the subscribed icon?
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Lethe on <03-08-12/1522:24>
Everyone only need their signal rating to get to the nearest node. From there it doesn't matter anymore, you just jump from node to node as they are connected, building a chain.

Initiative does not change. A slow node would slow down all icons equally. But changing all or none is the same, so the latter one is used for simplicity.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-08-12/2356:57>
Everyone only need their signal rating to get to the nearest node. From there it doesn't matter anymore, you just jump from node to node as they are connected, building a chain.
uh... --Here's how I understand this issue:

If you're in a destination node and looking for hidden nodes "nearby" you would use the signal rating of the node at the destination end.  Example: if you hack into a public-access node in the foyer of a building, which has a really good Signal rating, but you really want to get into a datastore in the building, you'd have to find it -- if it's wired you have to do it the "old fashioned-way" with analyze and "detect hidden access" hopping from wired node to wired node (to my knowledge...)  And if you're in a more "modern" building with poor security (or the data is on someone's commlink in the building), that destination node might actually be wireless and hidden.  You would get into the public-access-node, hopefully with a security or admin account -- then scan for hidden nodes, borrowing the intermediary node's Signal rating (which might well be better than your commlink's signal...).  You can't hop to the destination node, because you haven't detected it (but presumably you know it's there somewhere...).  [Which signal you use to determine MSR matters for intercepting wireless traffic, for scanning for hidden nodes, capture wireless signal, detect active/passive wireless nodes, initiate decryption, etc. -- so this question is pertinent to all of these actions...]

This is how the wireless world works.  My question was about technomancers.  What signal rating do they use?  Their own, or that of the node they're in.  i.e. are they their own wireless transmitter even when outside their living node?  Or are they restricted to using the wireless antennae of the node they're in just like a hacker?

Quote
Initiative does not change. A slow node would slow down all icons equally. But changing all or none is the same, so the latter one is used for simplicity.

So you're saying that the matrix icon DOES slow down, and we don't bother calculating it into initiative.... but the hacker/technomancer is juggling some 10-20 potential icons at the same time (now presumably out-of-sync....), and attempting to sync actions with their meat-world friends at times... hrm.  I know it's too much overhead in the meat world -- just wondering whether I should account for it in my application since the app does the heavy-lifting and one of the points of creating it is for use at the table for on-site missions (in lieu of an "assistant GM" which I think is unrealistic).  If canon is simply "who cares" then I can just forget it. 

I'm asking these questions because I'm programming the matrix simulator...
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-09-12/0046:53>
Everyone only need their signal rating to get to the nearest node. From there it doesn't matter anymore, you just jump from node to node as they are connected, building a chain.
uh... --Here's how I understand this issue:

If you're in a destination node and looking for hidden nodes "nearby" you would use the signal rating of the node at the destination end.  Example: if you hack into a public-access node in the foyer of a building, which has a really good Signal rating, but you really want to get into a datastore in the building, you'd have to find it -- if it's wired you have to do it the "old fashioned-way" with analyze and "detect hidden access" hopping from wired node to wired node (to my knowledge...)  And if you're in a more "modern" building with poor security (or the data is on someone's commlink in the building), that destination node might actually be wireless and hidden.  You would get into the public-access-node, hopefully with a security or admin account -- then scan for hidden nodes, borrowing the intermediary node's Signal rating (which might well be better than your commlink's signal...).  You can't hop to the destination node, because you haven't detected it (but presumably you know it's there somewhere...).  [Which signal you use to determine MSR matters for intercepting wireless traffic, for scanning for hidden nodes, capture wireless signal, detect active/passive wireless nodes, initiate decryption, etc. -- so this question is pertinent to all of these actions...]

This is how the wireless world works.  My question was about technomancers.  What signal rating do they use?  Their own, or that of the node they're in.  i.e. are they their own wireless transmitter even when outside their living node?  Or are they restricted to using the wireless antennae of the node they're in just like a hacker?


"They are restricted to their own Signal rating anywhere they move, they cannot use sattelite uplink and so they never reach orbital network."

Because previous statement is false, Technos signal rating only matters to determine mutual distance from hidden nodes he is trying to locate aroung himself, and distance of the nearest wireless node connecting him to the meshwork

And for the response issue: Since it is "Your commlink" that is used to determine matrix initiative, Technomancers own Response rating apply in any situations. I dont understand why the node should affect this (the only way how to affect your initiative without applying damage mods is to win Reality Filrter test)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-09-12/0819:44>

"They are restricted to their own Signal rating anywhere they move, they cannot use sattelite uplink and so they never reach orbital network."

So much for the technomancer being able to travel the seattle-to-japan route for one of the sample systems I put in my game.... :/

But yes, I do remember something about that.  Thanks!  And I just re-programmed Scan to use the current node's signal ;) drat.

Quote
Because previous statement is false, Technos signal rating only matters to determine mutual distance from hidden nodes he is trying to locate aroung himself, and distance of the nearest wireless node connecting him to the meshwork

To clarify, though, if there were a complete chain up through Alaska & the Bering Straight, the technomancer might still make it from Seattle to China or Japan?  i.e. they can still follow the chain, as long as it doesn't require Satellite?  (In my simulator, I used a satellite to hop from a UCAS gateway to orbital to a Japan gateway...i.e. "Long distance, how may I route your call?")

Quote
And for the response issue: Since it is "Your commlink" that is used to determine matrix initiative, Technomancers own Response rating apply in any situations. I dont understand why the node should affect this (the only way how to affect your initiative without applying damage mods is to win Reality Filrter test)

OOooook...  So, I guess the icon-end of the connection (versus the persona-end) is simply a "projection" and it doesn't actually run on the destination node?  Not trying to be difficult, I'm actually trying to visualize what this all "looks like" on the hacker/technomancer end.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-09-12/0838:52>

"They are restricted to their own Signal rating anywhere they move, they cannot use sattelite uplink and so they never reach orbital network."
Quote
Because previous statement is false, Technos signal rating only matters to determine mutual distance from hidden nodes he is trying to locate aroung himself, and distance of the nearest wireless node connecting him to the meshwork

It was meant to be linked second expression to the first one :) I hope you got it, IDn if my english expression correctly follows my logic.

OOooook...  So, I guess the icon-end of the connection (versus the persona-end) is simply a "projection" and it doesn't actually run on the destination node?  Not trying to be difficult, I'm actually trying to visualize what this all "looks like" on the hacker/technomancer end.

When you got burn by Black IC, you got burn inside your brain, not inside some node. Since it is your commlink that got hurt, it seems that everything you see in matrix happens inside your acess point = persona origin node. Like using your browser - you dont actualy have to be in Uničov(CZ) to see my answer on your screen ;)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-09-12/1649:43>

"They are restricted to their own Signal rating anywhere they move, they cannot use sattelite uplink and so they never reach orbital network."
Quote
Because previous statement is false, Technos signal rating only matters to determine mutual distance from hidden nodes he is trying to locate aroung himself, and distance of the nearest wireless node connecting him to the meshwork

It was meant to be linked second expression to the first one :) I hope you got it, IDn if my english expression correctly follows my logic.

Wait -- Are you saying that technomancers are limited only to the nodes within MSR of their head?  i.e. they can't go from Seattle to New York through normal wireless chains? That's a pretty major limitation.... 

But the same is not true of hackers?

Quote
OOooook...  So, I guess the icon-end of the connection (versus the persona-end) is simply a "projection" and it doesn't actually run on the destination node?  Not trying to be difficult, I'm actually trying to visualize what this all "looks like" on the hacker/technomancer end.

When you got burn by Black IC, you got burn inside your brain, not inside some node. Since it is your commlink that got hurt, it seems that everything you see in matrix happens inside your acess point = persona origin node. Like using your browser - you dont actualy have to be in Uničov(CZ) to see my answer on your screen ;)

Rmmmm....  Iknow about the black IC part.  It's quite different from me seeing your answer on this forum.

This forum would be a node we BOTH logged into from our locations.  It lives wherever shadowrun4.com is hosted -- I can say my server eveslist.crisses.org is hosted in Michigan State, USA (just for example's sake).  I'm in New York State, USA -- You're in CZ.  We are "meeting" in "Michigan".  You and I are in something similar to AR -- we view this Michigan website in a browser window.  To anyone in VR viewing the site (were this the 2070s), they see our icons as "people" and doing things in the node, like posting posts or viewing forums.

Now, maybe I'm thinking too far back to VR in the 2050s where you at least PERCEIVED that you were "traveling to" your destination node.  You'd be flying -- for example -- along some data lines, say through the Seattle phone system -- and you'd see the "buildings" for the arcologies like the Aztecnology pyramid in the matrix.  And if you had an address for a place, you'd zoom there, and start your hacking routine.

Now, there's the VR perspective vs. what is "really" going on -- yes, it's really stuff going on in your own brain, and what you perceive not what is really going on -- I get that. 

But I disagree that it "seems" that you're in your commlink while you're in the matrix, unless the whole idea of "travel" has completely gone away and everything in the matrix has become an extension of AR -- just being in the matrix instead of your meat body while fiddling with windows --- rather than your icon having a sword and hacking some black-ic samurai to death.  How boring. :)

Sure a GM could play it where VR is just an extension of AR without the limits of the meat body in the way....  But that loses 100% of the idea that VR resembles Tron in some vague way.  Where you can talk to programs, and fling your disc around and take a lightship to the telecommunication node...
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-10-12/1239:57>

"They are restricted to their own Signal rating anywhere they move, they cannot use sattelite uplink and so they never reach orbital network."
Quote
Because previous statement is false, Technos signal rating only matters to determine mutual distance from hidden nodes he is trying to locate aroung himself, and distance of the nearest wireless node connecting him to the meshwork

It was meant to be linked second expression to the first one :) I hope you got it, IDn if my english expression correctly follows my logic.

Wait -- Are you saying that technomancers are limited only to the nodes within MSR of their head?  i.e. they can't go from Seattle to New York through normal wireless chains? That's a pretty major limitation.... 

But the same is not true of hackers?


Ehh
I just meant that technomancers signal matters only around his head...i.e. to determine mutual signal range or to see if he is able to connect to matrix. If he has Satelite uplink he can of course use it as peripheral to get himself on satelite, which is flying some hundred kilometers above so otherwise impossible to reach. And I also meant that once Techno reaches meshwork, he is capable of doing anythin else hackers/sprites/agents etc do. When you are using your commlink, Signal rating also matters only in a few situations...like ECM, mutual signal range for detecting hiden nodes/ hacking etc...
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: UmaroVI on <03-10-12/1300:23>
A technomancer's Signal rating works just like a Commlink's signal rating in every way. The hacker is treated as a "device" with that much Signal whenever it matters, such as MSR.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-11-12/0002:39>
Thank you both -- that's what I thought in the first place, I just wanted to make sure on the technomancer's end.  I apologize for the confusion, and thank you for helping me with clarity/certainty.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sichr on <03-11-12/0426:30>
Hey, this is Shadowrun site, pal. Being such polite would make people around think you have some side intentions :)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: crisses on <03-11-12/1723:36>
Hey, this is Shadowrun site, pal. Being such polite would make people around think you have some side intentions :)

Being polite is the ruse of the experienced gamemaster....to lure players into their game-trap.  Muhahahah....  ;)
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: DrGryme on <11-01-12/1836:56>
WOW!! +1 Indeed. This is a very helpful thread! Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sentinemodo on <02-09-13/0446:05>
Can somebody sticky this post?
I spent a better part of an hour trying to find it for the latest version
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Sentinemodo on <02-09-13/1107:27>
I'd love to see something similar for the magic.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Blue_Lion on <02-09-13/1141:09>
One thing you seem to be missing: in order to hack into a node, you either need to already be subscribed to it (ie, if it will let you make a user account, you can log into that, and then hack yourself an admin account), or be within mutual signal range. See SR4A p235.

That was debated allot, but a guest account is a subscriibution in 20th aniversy rule standards but not in the old 4th ed. Old 4th ed did not require a subscroption. As best I understand it.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: NitricAcid on <07-13-13/2015:51>
I hope this isn't too frowned upon, but I'm posting solely to bump this awesome document. Extremely helpful.

I realize 'necro blah blah' [if I get banned/warned, oh well], but it's too useful to be sunk.
Title: Re: Hacking the Matrix
Post by: Xenon on <07-15-13/1307:26>
So, when can we expect something similar for SR5? ;)