[CitizenJoe]

Down cycle hunting seems pretty sketchy to me.  From what I read, All Wings started the cycles of magic as a means of starving the Horrors.   She discovered later that her kind couldn't survive in the low mana environment, so she developed some sort of astral pocket dimensions which her kin could hibernate until magic levels rose again.  But if they were astral,  how did hunters get to them without magic? 

[Prime Mover]

All the talk of bloodlines takes me back to the reference from first SR novels.  At least  one Dragon was using the "night of rage" as cover for killing members of a certain bloodline.

[Nath]

The Penultimate Master identified in Threats saw battle in the Crusades and was born in the 13th or 14th century, which is a pretty strong hint as to The Crusader's identity.

It should be noted that part is kinda tricky, if you are to follow very closely, if not exactly, how the Game Information in Theats are worded.

Threats, page 83
The Penultimate Master
[...] Members of the Lodge of Merlin take the names, mannerisms and physical appearances of historical figures known to have practiced the arcane arts. For example, the current Penultimate Master is, for all intents and purposes, the Scotsman named Oliver Sinclair, member of a wealthy family of French refugees who pledged their loyalty to the Scottish king Robert Bruce in 1308. The gamemaster can choose from any number of such people from any period in history and any culture to convince the player characters that they are dealing with an unknown, unimaginably powerful force.

In the fiction, the Penultimate Master is claiming to be one Oliver Sinclair, disappeared in 1545, before revealing he was Jacques de Molay, born in 1264.

So he is, just like the Game Information, says, taking at least the name and physical appearance of Oliver Sinclair, an historical figure known to have practiced the arcane arts (or at least rumored to have considering the narrator's findings). Hard to say about the mannerisms. Indeed, it never said the adopted persona had to be older than their actual identity as you would assume if members of the Lodge of Merlin were normal people. Neither does it mention an additional layer of backup persona or anything like that. So as far the fiction and the game information go, the Penultimate Master can be Jacques de Molay.

Interestingly enough, 1264 is a decade or two later than what most historians hold to be Molay birth year. Also, the history of the Sinclair family and the Rosslyn chapel differs from RL History (the Sinclair line goes back to a William Saint Clare in 1280, with the Saint Clair name first showed up in Scotland as early as 1068, and there were no Ranald Sinclair, one William Sinclair, founded the Rosslyn Chapel).

[Crimsondude]

If he's supposed to be Jacques de Molay, then the Game Information should've said he was Jacques de Molay. For all intents and purposes.

[Tethra]

So many things on my mind, so many questions.

@CitizenJoe

Err... All-Wings did create the cycles? I didn´t know. Could you elaborate on that? My knowledge of Earthdawn is fairly limited. (I did know the Therans managed to stabilize the declining magic, but...) It´s not a natural phenomenon?

@PrimeMover

Didn´t Sirrurg bring down a plane simply for the purpose of killing one mage aboard it? There was something about Sirrurg taking out dragonslayers, iirc?


As for the (supposed) Black Lodge Denairastas connection:

IIRC, the connection was via the spirit being in a spirit pact with the Penultimate Master, not via members of the Denairastas family being members of the Black Lodge. Said spirit was rumored to be a deceased member of the Denairastas familiy or the Outcast himself. This isn´t disproven by the fact the Denairastas familiy isn´t around anymore. It´s rather not a matter of discussion, because it has never been stated (in any official material, as far as I know) in the first place.

I just skimmed "Loose Alliances" and found something about the Black Lodge in the part about the Vigilia Evangelica. Something about a part about the VE breaking away and going rogue after a Cisterian Monk started having "visions or some such".

I would really like to know more about the Black Lodge (and the Atlantean Foundation... and the Pendragon...).

Hm... How about the Pendragon being the Penultimate Master? Any thoughts?

IIRC the "Templars" (OOO-Agents) were after the Freamasons, an unofficial subsidiary of Black Lodge, Inc.?

Does anyone remember where Harly says something about "Ar´thu" gaining "more credit he doesn´t deserve"?

[Nath]

If he's supposed to be Jacques de Molay, then the Game Information should've said he was Jacques de Molay. For all intents and purposes.

I'd say if he was supposed to be over two hundred years old, whatever his original name was, then the Game Information should have said it.

[Nath]

@CitizenJoe
Err... All-Wings did create the cycles? I didn´t know. Could you elaborate on that? My knowledge of Earthdawn is fairly limited. (I did know the Therans managed to stabilize the declining magic, but...) It´s not a natural phenomenon?

I never read about that before, but the idea is interesting (though I'm also wondering if it wouldn't be one of those case where someone mixed up All-Wings and Dayheart).

One crucial point about the mana cycles is that the odd-numbered "cycles" are low-mana, dragon-free and horror-free era. Whoever called it "the first world" was calling out a world deprived of magic as the beginning of something (which would be odd for a dragon who's going to miss it entirely while it sleeps).

@PrimeMover
Didn´t Sirrurg bring down a plane simply for the purpose of killing one mage aboard it? There was something about Sirrurg taking out dragonslayers, iirc?

That was hinted at in Dragons of the Sixth World by a Laughin Man (aka Harlequin) post about "hunting the hunters".

When the Euroair 329 story was originally introduced, the authors were not feeling compelled to make Great Dragons as mighty as they now are considered. So to speak, the discrepancy between Euroair 329 story with Sirrurg and Tehran destruction by Aden was reconciled by making Great Dragons consistently nearly unstoppable and retconning the awakened passenger 57 into a more mysterious, powerful figure than he was supposed to be originally.

IIRC the "Templars" (OOO-Agents) were after the Freamasons, an unofficial subsidiary of Black Lodge, Inc.?

According to London SB and Shadows of Europe, the British freemasonery is supposed to have been "superceded" or "swallowed" by the New Druidic Movement. The whole point of the NDM, setting-wise, was to be a stand-in for a Sixth World, awakened and celtic-inspired, freemasonery that would control Great Britain. So it's unlikely the OOO would hunt down freemasons, and I did not find (so far) a reference that would suggest otherwise.

Threats states the Black Lodge recruits its members among freemasons in Europe and North America. Conspiracy Theories outright mentions the NDM at least as a recruitment pool. To think the NDM upper echelon might have doubled as the British chapter of the Black Lodge is a daunting idea to say the least. But isn't it actually written down in Threats that the Black Lodge "control or heavily influence governments of all types" ?

I guess it wouldn't be that hard to find pawns in Westminster to pursue an anti-elven agenda with regards to the relationships between Great Britain and "Ireland".

While we're at it, let's remind Artifacts Unbound and Conspiracy Theories describes several higher-ups in the UCAS Congress as Black Lodge members. It worth noting it has all the members of the Lodge of Morgana belonging to the UCAS Congress, implying lodges in the rest of the North America continent somewhat are subsidiaries of Washington (Joseph Willis Ellis, who is Speaker of the UCAS House and representative of Saint Louis district in Missouri, did head the CAS Lodge of Mordred according to Threats Game Information). Also, the chantry used by the Lodge of Merlin, "most likely [...] in Scotland or continental Europe" according to Threats Game Information, was set to be in Georgetown.

Shadows of Europe also gave some information about the Black Lodge operations in France, where the Lodge of Mordred was led by a catholic cardinal (with the Game Information there referring to a Knight Templar origin). The lodge backed French noble houses' political ascension during the 21st century, helping them in establishing the so-called "Project Omen" to seize power with the use of divination. By 2063, the French aristocracy was starting to divide into two factions, one led by noble houses of Britanny with strong ties to druidism (and Tir na nOg), and another led by more traditionalist, catholic noble houses, with a military background who originally had Black Lodge support (with neither of those side on a friendly footing with the Brits...).

[CitizenJoe]

I just recently saw someone post that dragon legend about All Wings. Or maybe it is Day Heart.   But yes, the legend says that a dragon caused the magic cycle to ebb as a means of starving out the Horrors.

As to the first world being magical... world numbering starts with the second.  Before that, it is just The World.  Someone in what we call the Second World, or Age of Dragons, determined that it was different from the time before.  For them it was the current age and prehistory.  Eventually the dragons left, leaving current times, the Age of Dragons and prehistoric times.  Since the concept of zero doesn't show up for tens of thousands of years, the worlds get numbered 1 to 3.

[Nath]

As to the first world being magical... world numbering starts with the second.  Before that, it is just The World.  Someone in what we call the Second World, or Age of Dragons, determined that it was different from the time before.  For them it was the current age and prehistory.  Eventually the dragons left, leaving current times, the Age of Dragons and prehistoric times.

What I find interesting is that one dragon does abide to this numbering of ages - IIRC it's Dunkelzahn who popularized the expression "Sixth World" in his first interview.

If we make the assumption the cycle of magic applies since the first age, dragons have only been around, laying and hatching eggs during the second, fourth and sixth age, or before the first age. We do know dragons live and sleep long enough to get from a even age to the next. So during the so-called "Second World" (or Age of Dragons), there would have been dragons old enough to have seen and remember the world before the "First World", and dispute that name. This prompts me to consider some alternatives...

- The Second World was known as the Age of Dragons because there were no dragons before, and possibly no magic at all on Earth. So to speak, the First Age started with Humanity, or mammals, or Earth creation, and ended with magic and dragons.

- There was no dragons to tell about the world before the first because Verjigorm had them all killed during a previous scourge. A number of eggs went unscathed and hatched at the beginning of the Second World, leaving a new generation of dragons with no record of ancient history (or alternatively, a limited number of ancient dragons, like All-Wings, who would hide the young what happened before, possibly inventing the Dayheart mythos then).

- Dunkelzahn willingly followed a numbering of ages established by humans (like Mesoamerican mythos' Five Suns or Hesiod's Five Ages). Considering how naming is important to dragons, maybe establishing that name was a way of saying his fellow dragons something along the lines of "humans are the actual rulers of this planet throughout History, we dragons are only passing". The actual number of ages recorded by the dragons may be greater.

- The dragons know zero (and fencepost errors) long before humanity, and didn't feel the need to explain lesser creatures how to properly number the passing ages.

[CitizenJoe]

Remember that dragons use interpreters.   They normally communicate directly via telepathy.  In order to communicate digitally,  they have an interpreter speak for them. That allows for misquotes, particularly for naming conventions.

[Mirikon]

Remember that dragons use interpreters.   They normally communicate directly via telepathy.  In order to communicate digitally,  they have an interpreter speak for them. That allows for misquotes, particularly for naming conventions.

Technically, while in metahuman form they can speak normally. In their draconic form, they either need to use an interpreter, use telepathy, or use magic to generate a voice.

[Sendaz]

Little known fact: Dragons are able to speak, if a bit roughly as their mouth structure is not designed for the shaping of many of our sounds, but refrain from doing so due to a quirk in their biology whereupon they naturally produce helium gases. 

They are able to expel this gas to serve as a physical medium for the elemental dragonbreath to 'ride' on, not unlike a alchemical preparation in a sense though on an instantaneous basis.
While fire is the most common expression, dragonbreath utilizing other elements effects have been reported.
One oriental dragon was able to enchant elemental water effects onto his breath attack, thus creating a thick fog that confused and mislead those caught within it.

This oddity of the production of helium gas within their body, which a normal biology should not be able to produce, was first discovered thanks to a mysterious donation of a nearly dead and crippled dragon to a research facility that shall remain unnamed to protect them from retribution for their study and eventual dissection of the draco.
The researchers found various organic 'stacks' attached to and running along side the lungs that's sole purpose seems to be producing and retaining this lighter than air gas while being able to vent directly into the lungs as a reflex action.

It was theorized that the production of this lighter than air gas was the original source of the creatures power of flight, but the amount produced and retained is simply not sufficient to provide sufficient lift given their considerable mass.  However it is possible that the gas producing capability predates the Dragons  usage of magic and might have reduced the weight of these early proto-dragons enough to allow limited gliding, but this can not be substantiated due to a lack of any fossil records to support this.  Likewise it would not explain those oriental subspecies that lacked wings altogether and thus would not have had a gliding phase in their development.  Nor can it explain how the venting mechanism that the dragons eventually utilized for their dragonbreath ability might have evolved.
 
This constant production invariably leads to a continual low level leakage of helium into the respiratory system, which affects their vocal cords just as it would a human breathing in a helium balloon.
The high pitched squeaky voice resulting from this is an embarrassment to all dragons and as such they refuse to speak to the lesser races directly so as to not make themselves a possible target of ridicule, granted short lived if done in front of said dragon, and thus stain the majestic image that they strive to maintain at all costs.
 

That said, will pay good nuyen to anyone who can provide a confirmed undoctored recording of Ol' Goldsnout talking in his chipmunk voice.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

*snorks*

[Mirikon]

Sendaz's post is one of the reasons I wish we could still give rep bonuses. Well done, sir.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Now all I can imagine is a Great Dragon pop band, all with chipmunk sounding voices. The band name, maybe L' & the Greats!