[FastJack]

If you have two identical magicians (for simplicity no extra foci or exceptional attributes, which both cold have) let’s say both have initiation 4, magic 10, willpower 6, spellcasting 6 and counterspelling 6.
....

both must've spend about 280-300 Karma just for Initiation 4 and MAG 10 (acording to the errattaed rules)

Hough!
Medicineman

Well, we got one in the group, and two mag 9 adepts...

Lord! How long has this group been playing?

Maybe you could think about retiring the characters and creating new ones if the power PCs are too much of a problem?

[Bradd]

With that much karma, you could build a wicked mage-killing adept or mystic. Echolocation, Spell Resistance, and a good Weapon Focus will seriously cramp your mages' style.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Ok, i buy it. You are not suppesed to stand up in a firefight  . And i'l lay it out to my group that we shout ban the channeling. That's what makes standing up in firefight possible. (Invis a bit tough still though, yeah yeah, sonar, but how common is that??

And sure, incapacitating a mage without killing him is no big problem (channeling left out).

But i would really like my group being able to talk to people and not having to kill everything on sight.

Maybe i should just start an new thread "Speaking with the enemy".

PS. No, the hits from succes or extra bullets doesn´t help against hardend as i get it. Just base DV.

Extra bullets don't help, but the extra hits do, per the rules on pgs. 149 (modified DV) and 295 (hardened armor) in SR4A and pgs. 140 (modified DV) and 288 (hardened armor) in SR4.  So both called shots and extra hits count for overcoming armor with the attack's DV, but not bursts.  This makes well aimed sniper shots absolutely devastating.

If you want you're players to talk to people, then create a mission where they have to talk to people.  Don't make a mission that can be resolved by violence (although, honestly, almost everything can be solved by violence if you really, really want it to  ).  Have them try to convince a mark to spoill the beans about some important information at a dinner party, or within a well done con/sting operation.  You can't expect someone to stand there and listen to someone else's rant, not when they are the enemy and can be silenced easily.  Make it so that they are outside of a situation where violence can be applied.  Don't punish them for using common sense.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Also, the hardened armor, while nice, is still affected by AP ratings, and you really only need to breach the armor with base damage + hits.  AP ammo and a good sniper rifle, that takes care of most problems.

It does not :-/ you got the basic immunity, yes, you can breach through it, yes, but now, your bullet has to deal with the stacked normal armor and the improved Body. The guy who summon, let's say a force 5 spirit, can't be affected by any physical attack with a DV under 10 (and I'm note sure modifiers such as burst and so applies), and even if he is, he's got just 10 dice more on is armor, and 5 on his Body attribute. Good luck, little bullet !
And I don't talk about a sustained armor spell, it's gonna be indecent.

That's why you don't fire one bullet, and you don't do it from 10 feet away.  A few hundred yards away in concealment means that they can take their time to line up the shot and deal maximum damage.  They also have the time to take another if the first doesn't work.  Also, the damage from that shot is pretty overwhelming.  For example:

Barrett 121 (it seems to be popular) does base 9 damage.  Called shot boosts it up by 4 to 13.  Armor piercing or anti-vehicle ammo improves AP by 4 more, for a total of -8 AP.  Let's go ahead and use someone with a good skill of 4 and agility of 4 using  an improved rangefinder and a smartlink (a specialist would have more skill and a better gun, but let's only go halfway for now).    That's a base 10 dice with the link, +2 for aiming -4 for the called shot.  Without going to extremes he can auto 2 hits or roll for 2 or 3 hits on average, not including edge.  The target can't defend against it, because he doesn't know it is coming.  This produces a minimum damage of 15.  In order for this not to be a threat, the target needs at least 53 total armor + body to deal with it rolling average or 68 total body + armor to auto it (after AP). This is with minimal shooting skill and hits.  A lucky shot from someone tweaked out for it (elf with 13 agi, 7 skill +  2 specialization, enhanced articulation and reflex recorder with positive qualities and gene tweaking)  will have 24 aimed dice without edge use.  This is just the sniper shot.

Heaven forbid someone sics another magic type on him.  The spirit is still vulnerable to banishing as normal (he gets no special bonuses), and if he does get kicked out, he cannot reinhabit the channeller until the sun next rises or sets.  And if he only has that one trick, he's dead.

In old shadowrun adventures, there's often a first paragraphe, in french its title is "Dites-le avec des mots", I guess in english it makes somethin like "Tell it with words" : you just "stop" the game, PC just shut up, you tell the description you need to, and then, ok, let's go.

That always feels like railroading.  It makes for some player frustration, even if they agree to it.  Most players will let you describe the scene and even let the opposition speak a word or two, but I know of too many that will want to headshot the baddie while they are talking.  If you really want to have someone rant away while the players are there, an illusion spell sent through a fiber optic network works fine.  Or just have him contact them on their commlinks.  Much safer than standing out in the open waiting to get shot.

[Leodriz]

Bradd - Fortunately no one in the grou are that combat orinted or power building. We try to broaden the field of competence instead. For exampel a forcepoint in hardware makes the adept a nice lock cracker. As a large we roleplay more than we fight, can spend hours on the group hanging around a bar or something.

Gun nut - Or instead of 50+ dice you have him possesed by a force 10 spirit = 20 hardened... but then, hay, what mage walks around outdoors in broad dayligt with a high force spirit as baggage... Yah, sniping works agains everything that shows itself.

[The_Gun_Nut]

True enough, but there are plenty of things that drop armor by half, some then apply AP to it, as well.  Granted, these are pretty exotic, but if you are having trouble with an exotic yourself, then by all means use the exotic stuff.

For less exotic, elemental effects (fire, electicity, acid, cold) drops armor by half, including hardened.  Chemicals still affect the possessed, the body doesn't become immune to them, and hardened armor doesn't help for that at all.  The spirit might be immune to sarin gas, or to nanotech, but the meat body isn't.

The long and the short of it is this:  possession mages are potent (very much so).  They might need some tweaking even, rules wise.  But they aren't invulnerable to mundane attacks, just really resistant.  I have yet to run into anything that good old fashioned bullets don't take care of.

Also, I would like to know if anyone can find a specific page that states that spirits are immune to stun damage.  I'm having a hard time finding it.  Hardnened armor doesn't grant immunity.  In fact, the only thing I have found that says anything about being immune to stun is for vehicles.  Anyone else find anything on it?  (Hard evidence please, like page numbers and paragraph headers.)  This would make them vulnerable to a slew of new possibilities.

EDIT:  Found an entry in Street Magic that explicitly talks about spirits taking stun damage.  So, stunning a spirit is possible.  Electrical attacks are looking more and more potent  (Stick'n'Shock 4tw).

[Leodriz]

So, for my part i'm satisfied and can close this thread. I have gotten a few tipps on balancing it all up and finding new angles to look at it from. Thanks all.

One last note.

@Gun nut - 4E Coorebook  page 288 Immunity

A critter with Immunity has an enchanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an "Armor rating" equal to twice its Magic agains that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then then the attack automatically does no damage.

Make of this what you want 

[FastJack]

That's only for Critters with Immunity, though... Not all armored opponents.

[Leodriz]

Yes, but that´s what a spirit is (as I get the rules), a critter with the "Immunity to normal weapons" power.

[The_Gun_Nut]

And the armor is still subject to modification from AP and elemental effects.  So a gun with SnS rounds will do 6s electrical damage which will cut the hardened armor in half.  That force 10 with 20 points of hardened armor just got it dropped to 10 points of hardened armor.  If the attacker generates 4 net hits, then the target takes the FULL EFFECT.

A flame thrower cuts the armor in half and has a healthy base damage before net hits come in (8P for the normal sized one, 6P for the "pistol" version).  And there's also a sonic rifle that does some nice stun damage that ignores armor.  Then, for the truly exotic, you have laser weapons (half armor for those, too).

Then there are the monofilament weapons (whips, bolas, etc.), the rather exotic heavy weapons (gauss anyone?) that drop the armor in half and has a nasty AP modifier (granted, those are vehicle weapons, but still).  As long as we are talking heavy weapons, an inferno rocket has a base 12 damage and cuts armor in half, the Zapper Static Discharge rocket (more electrical damage) that drops armor by half, chemical grenades (hope you have chemical seal), white phosphorous grenades...

And these are only the mundane tricks (and I have many, many more).  Banishing works just fine on the spirit; it gets NO special bonuses other than number of services (better bind the guy, a lot).  And still, we come back to my favorite:  Parasitic flourescing astral bacteria.  Yay for infecting astral and dual natured beings with painful death.

In short, there is always a way to deal with the target.

[anotherJack]

But problem is you may not only have over-powered possession mages in the team, so when it comes to the others characters to deal with these weapons, what do they do ? it's a common problem when you've got a gap between characters power : if you adjust the opponent's power to the most powerfull of your players, then if it's "balanced" with the most powerfull character, it's quite deadly for the others. See that this mage will probably have among the highest scores in both Body and Reaction due to possessions' bonii, so he may be the best dodger/tanker in the team.

[The_Gun_Nut]

What's a bonii?

I don't see it as a big problem.  I see it as a sign that the runner team (and it is a team) can handle some disproportionally powerful opposition.  Let the possession mage go deal with some of the big nasty, the others can use it as a distraction or as a means of escaping.

And who's to say that the other side can't have a possession mage?  By the same reasoning, the players have to take it up a notch in order to deal with one guy, and find ways around him.  That's "unfair" to the normal sec goons who earn their wages the hard way, by gum!

It all reinforces a point which I have stated many, many times in several different ways:  Shadowrunners do not engage in stand up fights.  Period.  Anyone who wants to do something that moronic has earned the death they asked for.  The possession mage can take a lot more punishment, absolutely.  But he's not invulnerable, and sneaking in and out is always the best option.  The firepower is for that frenzied quick run out of the target zone.

I think it boils down to whether you think all runs should be balanced for the party, or if common sense should dictate what the opposing force should consist of.  If the players are choosey and use foresight, then they will only take on things they can handle, I.E. are "balanced."  Or, if the fecal matter has impacted the rotating aerodynamic screw, get the heck outta Dodge, to live and fight another day.

[anotherJack]

What's a bonii?

Plural form of bonus.

[The_Gun_Nut]

No, that's bonuses. See here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bonus.  Bonii doesn't exist in the English language.  It looks like it might be, but it is not.  Don't know if other languages use it, however.

[anotherJack]

Okay thanks. In french, bonus is still a latin word, so if you use it correctly, you use the latin plural, which is bonii. I thought english language kept the latin form.

EDIT : oh yes it did : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bonii