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Specalized vs. flexable characters

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Glyph

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« Reply #15 on: <01-31-11/0012:10> »
The thing that makes generalists viable is, as I alluded to in my first point, the wide array of dice pool boosts available to them - and this isn't going against the intent of the system.  Far from it.  Technology and magic turning Joe Average into a superhuman (but with a dark twist) is part of the whole atmosphere.

Look, take someone with Agility: 4 and the Firearms skill group at 3.  That's 7 dice, not really that much.  But get the restricted gear quality and give this guy muscle toner: 4 and a suprathyroid gland, raising that Agility to 9, and then get a reflex recorder for that Firearms skill group, and cybereyes with a smartlink.  Suddenly, you're rolling 15 dice, much more acceptable for someone expected to back up the primary shooter against security guards that are likely to outnumber you and be on their home ground.  And with such a high Agility, this guy will also sneak better, jump better, and do numerous other things better than the person with 200 points in Attributes and lots of skills, but not a lot of 'ware.

I'll add something else.  Nearly any supporting character, in addition to the dice pool levels I alluded to earlier, should also have at least one additional initiative pass, and some good armor/damage soaking capability, simply to be survivable.

Kontact

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« Reply #16 on: <01-31-11/0117:27> »
It's still more efficient to put as many points into attributes as possible since they add dice to whole swaths of skills.

Glyph

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« Reply #17 on: <01-31-11/0229:37> »
Yeah, but don't stop with the natural  points.  Look at my example above - those two pieces of 'ware gave the character 8 more Attribute points.

Sichr

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« Reply #18 on: <01-31-11/0331:29> »
Yeah, but don't stop with the natural  points.  Look at my example above - those two pieces of 'ware gave the character 8 more Attribute points.

Do not have the rules right now to see that but what is the cost of this Cyberware?

FastJack

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« Reply #19 on: <01-31-11/0857:14> »
Yeah, but don't stop with the natural  points.  Look at my example above - those two pieces of 'ware gave the character 8 more Attribute points.

Do not have the rules right now to see that but what is the cost of this Cyberware?
EssenceNuyen'Ware
0.832,000¥Muscle Toner R4
0.745,000¥Superthyroid
0.225,000¥Reflex Recorder (Firearms Skill Group)
1.7102,000¥Bioware
0.51,500¥
(plus options)
Cybereyes R4
0.25~6,500¥Cyberware
1.95~108,500¥Total cost

Sichr

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« Reply #20 on: <01-31-11/0910:40> »
Oh..I mean money cost :) or better, how many BPs for resources??

FastJack

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« Reply #21 on: <01-31-11/0923:33> »
Oh..I mean money cost :) or better, how many BPs for resources??
Updated the info

topcat

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« Reply #22 on: <01-31-11/1118:37> »
A character min/maxxed to perform well at a small pool of things will be the best possible option for competing in that pool.  They'll be useless outside of that pool, hoping that someone else will pick up all other pools on their behalf.  It's very much "MMO" thinking where characters have specific roles they are expected to excel at and a good team covers all necessary roles.  Like in MMOs, some SR4 players just assume that any non-specialized character is useless by virtue of the fact that they are not as good as mix/maxxedly possible at a given role.

I tend to prefer having cover for every role on a team.  Even if that cover is less than perfect, it's still better than going from perfect to nothing if the character in the primary role falters.  Whether that's a single character that can fill in many roles or multiple characters with secondary roles, it's just nice to have backup.  The safety of backup requires some tradeoffs from the single-role min/maxxed build.  Whether those tradeoffs are worth it is up to the particular group of players

Finally, reduced min/maxxing makes it a lot easier on the GM.  By being slightly less focused, you lower the bar as to what's needed to challenge any given character and raise the bar for what each character can handle, arriving at a happier medium.  One near-unkillable character makes it hard to produce quality threats for the team, because anything that can threaten the near-unkillable character will liquefy anything else on the team.

Damnyankee

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« Reply #23 on: <01-31-11/1142:36> »

I'll add something else.  Nearly any supporting character, in addition to the dice pool levels I alluded to earlier, should also have at least one additional initiative pass, and some good armor/damage soaking capability, simply to be survivable.
I agree with that.  Shadowrun is a dangerous universe. 
Besides the above mentioned cyber suite, what are some other options?  I was looking at some of the old stand buys as well...  reaction enhancers  thats a bonus to the ranged dice pool.  Most of the mods that give you the extra pass also give you a bonus to reaction as well. 
If you look at being a Something/something/hacker, most of the hacking skills do not rely on the stat too much, if you are only going for 2-3 pts in your hacking skills, it might be ok to no max out on the related attribs.  Yes, you can be dumb as a post and still be a drek-hot hacker.

Damnyankee

FastJack

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« Reply #24 on: <01-31-11/1206:52> »
Looking over the thread, I'd rather have characters that were great at one thing, but decent enough at a second thing that they could pick up the slack if needed. If you built an entire team like that, you'd have a well-oiled machine that could get out of any jam.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #25 on: <01-31-11/1226:09> »
Speaking as a player of a character who is a generalist covert ops kind of person, my character does very well.  He can not only sneak around, but bypass security, tail a mark, disguise himself, impersonate another male human, run, swim, flip, and climb, and does well in fire fights and close combat.  In fact, I picked up some extra stuff from the martial arts PQ's in Arsenal so that he could get himself out of trouble when he needed to.

He has about two dozen different skills to cover a variety of situations.  He isn't great at any one thing, he's just good at everything.  Has dice pools in the 8 to 10 range for everything he does.  I can personally attest to the fact that you don't need 12+ dice pools to be effective.  You DO have to know what it is you want to do, and how to squeeze every advantage from a situation.  I don't mean just extra dice, I mean thinking on your feet and changing the conditions that you find yourself performing in.  That means making hard rolls (high thresholds) into easier rolls by taking the right piece of gear (field kits for stuff like electronics) or by making it so that you don't need large dice pools to be effective.  Don't hit something head on, go around it.  This holds true for everyone, but the generalist will shine if you adhere to this idea closely.

The great benefit of the generalist is that if you have someone in the group filling a role and specializing in it (becoming a primary with 15+ dice in a relevant pool), that teammate knows that, no matter what, someone can back them up when they need it.  And the whole team knows that they can count on having a secondary to allow the team to multi-task a situation to their maximum advantage.

Having more than one primary filling a role is problematic as the ones involved will step on each other's toes.  The generalist, however, won't outshine the specialist at what he does, but will give the team a safety net for their plans if (when) things go wrong.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Sichr

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« Reply #26 on: <01-31-11/1317:51> »
Speaking as a player of a character who is a generalist covert ops kind of person, my character does very well.  He can not only sneak around, but bypass security, tail a mark, disguise himself, impersonate another male human, run, swim, flip, and climb, and does well in fire fights and close combat.  In fact, I picked up some extra stuff from the martial arts PQ's in Arsenal so that he could get himself out of trouble when he needed to.

Was that character created as such with 400 BP, or is it karma payed?? Because, I`d wote for having more than just one field of interrests, but you will have to survive and play smart, until you are good enought to go out without the team (of specialists :) to cover your ass.

EssenceNuyen'Ware
0.832,000¥Muscle Toner R4
0.745,000¥Superthyroid
0.225,000¥Reflex Recorder (Firearms Skill Group)
1.7102,000¥Bioware
0.51,500¥
(plus options)
Cybereyes R4
0.25~6,500¥Cyberware
1.95~108,500¥Total cost

I was wandering what costit would be, but 22 BP is quite cheap...

Bradd

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« Reply #27 on: <01-31-11/1629:43> »
It's very much "MMO" thinking where characters have specific roles they are expected to excel at and a good team covers all necessary roles.

It's not just MMOs! You see this all the time in ensemble fiction, especially in the heist genre, and it happens in real life too. The usual thing is for each teammate to dominate one specialty plus a basic skill set shared by all. For example, in Leverage, the whole team has solid Stealth group and Con skills, Eliot dominates Combat, Sophie does Social, Parker owns Athletics group, and Hardison covers Electronics & Cracking group. (Nate's niche isn't easily modeled by RPGs.) Some of them have backup skills, some have weaknesses, but overall it's the same approach you see in team games.

For a very different example, see Charmed. The Charmed Ones can all cast spells and brew potions, but their innate powers give them very different teamwork roles. Prue's power is their main magical weapon, Piper defends them, and Phoebe is the master of legwork. They often make plans to coordinate their unique abilities.

I see this all the time in the workplace too. There are certain basic skills that everyone needs, but beyond that it's a good use of resources to specialize. Risk is higher in real life, so we tend to have more backup experts, but the basic setup still happens. The difference between MMOs, fiction, and real life is one of degree rather than kind.

topcat

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« Reply #28 on: <01-31-11/1730:11> »
It's not just MMOs! You see this all the time... (snip examples)

Good examples, but they appear to fall short of MMO style play, because the characters are able to do things outside of their specialty with an acceptable (and often exceptional) degree of competence.  They may have a specialty or focus, but they are still competent and useful outside of it.

I use MMO play to mean that the character fits one of a few very focused roles (e.g. damage, debuff, buff, heal, control, tank) and focuses on that role so heavily and exclusively that it ends up unable to contribute meaningfully outside of the role.  Most builds tend toward this, because that's how you get one-shot kills, unkillable trolls, and hackers that can sleepwalk through the best military security out there.  If every build point is spent toward one goal, the results can be incredible.

Some games may require MMO-style play, others don't.  Nothing wrong with either choice, say I, as long as it's fun and fits the game.  I tend to prefer a more toned-down game, whether playing or GMing, though I certainly go through powergaming phases from time to time.

Damnyankee

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« Reply #29 on: <01-31-11/1958:29> »
A counter-ensable example would be Burn Notice.  Mike, Sam and Fye all have the same basic skill set, with some (minor) variation.  The few times they have any one else help its usually not for the skills, but the lack of warm bodies (or cars, or houses..)  The characters differ (and the inter group conflict arises from) in that they have different motivations and goals. 

Damnyankee