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Resisting illusions - all or nothing? Ties? Object Resistance?

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The Bald Man

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« on: <05-18-17/1406:26> »
MAG+Spellcasting vs LOG+INT for physical (LOG+WPR for mana) is the check.

What happens when an illusion spell is resisted?  Take TRID phantasm for example: If I put an illusion of a big box over a smaller box, and the illusion is resisted does the target see the smaller box?  Is there a shadowy big box?  Does it work the same way with Invisibility and physical mask?

Who wins ties?  If I get 4 spellcasting hits and they get 4 hits to resist.  Does the illusion stand?

For physical illusions vs sensors you have to beat Object resistance?  Device rating x2?  What about a guard viewing through a camera?  Do they resist with LOG vs INT or rely on the camera's defense?

Finally, Can you stack effects?  Two identical physical mask spells forcing 2 successful rolls?  9 dice will eventually beat 5 hits over enough tests. 

adzling

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« Reply #1 on: <05-19-17/1106:58> »
1). If you resist the illusion has no effect, you don't see it.

2). Ties always go to the defender. The defender is the person resisting the spell effect.

3). Take object resistance from the object resistance table in CORE.

4). Guard viewing through a camera uses the object (camera's) resistance.

5). I would not let you stack the same illusion, I'd make the defender pierce the better of the two. Although there is no RAW about it.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #2 on: <05-19-17/1341:30> »
adzling, do you have a rule reference for #1? Specifically the "you don't see it" part.

I play it that you see the illusion but that you know it's an illusion. Call it a semi-transparent effect, so you see that the caster is supposed to look like Granny but you can tell that it's actually the Big Bad Wolf.

But, reviewing the rules, I don't see any text that supports either interpretation explicitly.

&#24525;

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« Reply #3 on: <05-19-17/1437:55> »
adzling, do you have a rule reference for #1? Specifically the "you don't see it" part.
I like that example lol. I've just used wavey mirages that are semi transparent.

I play it that you see the illusion but that you know it's an illusion. Call it a semi-transparent effect, so you see that the caster is supposed to look like Granny but you can tell that it's actually the Big Bad Wolf.

But, reviewing the rules, I don't see any text that supports either interpretation explicitly.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #4 on: <05-19-17/1508:22> »
adzling, do you have a rule reference for #1? Specifically the "you don't see it" part.

I play it that you see the illusion but that you know it's an illusion. Call it a semi-transparent effect, so you see that the caster is supposed to look like Granny but you can tell that it's actually the Big Bad Wolf.

But, reviewing the rules, I don't see any text that supports either interpretation explicitly.

I too have ruled in the past that Illusions that are resisted are obviously fake, though still visible. Otherwise there is a whole class of spells that could potentially be useless and another that gets odd results if some people resist and others don't.

The Entertainment Spells are always obviously illusions, its creating a light-show for purely entertainment purposes. I'm actually not even sure what the point of resisting these spells is, but there isn't really the option to choose to fail. If people resisting these spells just flat-out didn't see it, it would be bad, and could potentially be even worse.

The Phantasm spells, and really any of the spells that creates a physical effect (Physical rather than Mana-based Illusions) create an actual visual effect. It isn't something only visible in the mind's eye, that's why Cameras and other technological items can see them. If resisting these spells made them completely unseen, you have a case of reverse invisibility. The person who succeeds at resisting the spell doesn't see "person standing right there" while everyone else does. From a meta-game perspective, we know what's going on, but think about it from the perspective of the characters. How would we know who is correct? That's why I use the "you see through the illusion routine" you can see that it's there, but it is semi-transparent and obviously an illusion of some sort.

Otherwise we get the old D&D illusory floor trick. In D&D some of the more powerful illusions can have the full range of senses, including touch. Up to the point where if you fail to resist the illusion of a floor, you can walk on it, because it feels like a real floor to you. This means that a floor made by this illusion is a reverse-trap. Succeeding at the resistance means that you fall, Failing means you're safe. But in D&D, you can choose to fail checks, so the sign that says "Have faith, and let yourself go" can actually be followed and you can choose to fail the Will save to resist the floors existence.

Rosa

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« Reply #5 on: <05-19-17/2330:06> »
On page 290 CRB under physical illusions it says "the magician must generate more hits than the observer for the illusion to be considered real", which seems to indicate imo that you definitely do see the illusion no matter what, but if you resist you will see that it isn't real.