Author Topic: Best Race for the Role  (Read 849 times)

gargaM0NK

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Best Race for the Role
« on: (09:08:38/04-21-17) »
The low priority investment combined with increased Edge of Humans and the relatively high Edge per Metatype rank combined with increased Agility of Elves seem to make them well-suited towards most roles.

What roles (Adept vs Techno/Magic vs Augmented versions of the following specialties) do you feel like Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls are competent at despite their shortcomings?

Here's what I have so far:
Close CombatFire SupportInfiltrationMatrixNegotiationTransportation
CyberwareTroll TankOrk Street SamHuman Covert OpsTroll DeckerOrk FaceHuman Rigger
AdeptElf Phys AdTroll Archery AdeptElf Infiltration AdeptHuman Matrix AdeptDwarf Social AdeptOrk Smuggling Adept
SpellcasterOrk Touch MageTroll Combat MageDwarf Occult InvestigatorElf Shaman
TechnoDwarf Technomancer

It's not perfect. But it does give at least 3 options for a given metatype.
« Last Edit: (09:24:03/04-26-17) by gargaM0NK »

Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #1 on: (13:55:20/04-21-17) »
Best Race for any role is the Race that you want to play. :)
Not surprising that Humans can do it all... after all, they are the most common race around. :)
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firebug

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #2 on: (14:25:42/04-21-17) »
Best Race for any role is the Race that you want to play. :)
Not surprising that Humans can do it all... after all, they are the most common race around. :)

True.  Sadly, the Priority (and thus, Sum to 10) build methods make it very punishing to try playing an Ork, Dwarf, or Troll outside of their specialties, due to the significant cost to pick them.  As a result, almost nobody plays dwarves in 5th edition from everything I've seen.  Orks beat them in pure combat (unless you're someone who really appreciates the strength of the Willpower attribute), and they don't excel in any other role enough to make up for the extra Priority points you save by picking Elf or Human.  Trolls, even moreso, are such an investment that playing one outside of a melee role is incredibly frustrating, even before taking into account their lowered max attributes.

As for the OP, your roles are very biased.  For instance, you're implying that for a magician, the only thing that matters is their drain resist pool.  I could argue that since "Geek The Mage" is alive and well in the 2070's, picking a metatype that gives you added defense is a big deal.  As well, increasing your ability to take drain includes increasing your Stun or Physical track, both of which a dwarf provides, making them the best at spellcasting.
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Glyph

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #3 on: (23:47:52/04-21-17) »
At least it isn't as bad as SR1, where metatypes required the highest Priority and had to roll for an allergy.  The key word is "best", though.  Outside of tank and/or close combat roles, orks and trolls may not be (purely numerically) optimal choices, but they are still viable choices.

ZeldaBravo

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #4 on: (00:58:49/04-22-17) »
While there is an obvious synergy between a metatype and a party role (Elf+Charisma tradition mage+Face for example), people should always remember that an optimised Elf Face is only four dice ahead of an optimised Troll Face (and that's before Metatype Reduction) and it doesn't really matter because they both are rolling 20+ negotiation dice.

You're making good threads that promote discussion among players and, hopefully, help the new players to make some "right" decisions in this game. Shadowrun is overflowing with options and choices, so any help is welcome.

HOWEVER.
Orks, trolls, and dwarves are not as popular as humans and elves not because they are bad at their jobs. It's because they have a high opportunity cost. That's the real deal breaker with... everything, actually. Opportunity cost is a topic that should be discussed more in your Math thread, because Karma and BPs are not the only instruments 5e players have to create their characters.

To put it simple, if you are getting a Metatype A priority that means that something else is not at A. That's why humans are such a solid pick for any role, you get 3 edge minimum and Magic priority is quite easy to define for yourself anyway. Other metatypes make you wiggle around trying to find a balance between what you want, and what the system allows you to have.

So, a general advice to anyone who wants to play a high Meta prio character: start assigning priorities from Magic, then proceed from the least important to most important. Find a spot you can take a hit to first.

Let's give it a shot, shal we? Let's say make a party of a Troll samurai, an Ork mage, a Dwarf infiltrator/face, and a Troll decker.

So, with a sammie it's quite straightforward, - we don't want any magic, so Magic E. Skills are not as important as attributes for a fighter: Skills D, Attributes C. We're tight on attributes so we need ware to compensate and enhance our abilities, edge is not that important at the moment. Meta B, Resources A.
So we end up with something like
Quote
B5, A4(7), R4(6), S10(13), W3, I4, C1, L1, Edge1; Throwing 6(+2 blades), Unarmed 6, Perception 4(+2 visual), Etiquette 3, Sneaking 1;

before we spend any karma. Seems okay in my book, we can drive our throwing knives through building walls and can wear a ton of armor if a need arises.

Ork mage, - Magic A is probably the best idea for this one. It is quite common for mages to start with Resources E, but since Magic A gives you 2 free skills at 5 I want to start with Skills E. I'm going with a Hermetic tradition so this Ork will have a lot of Knowledge skills to back the team up. Next, - Resources D. 50k is a solid start for a Magician, gets you quite a bit of magical and mundane gear. I want to make this character more of an academic and a skilled spellcaster, so we have Attributes C, Meta B for more edge, less brawn.
Quote
B4, A1, R3, S3, W5, I5, L5, C3, Edge 5, Magic 6; Spellcasting 6(+2 Manipulation), Summoning 6(+2 Spirits of Fire), Perception 4, Automatics 4 (+2 Machine pistols), Con 4 (+2 Fast talk);
With 50.000 starting nuyen we'll get a focus or two, some vital gear, a R4 sin and a lifestyle. Probably even a bike!

A Dwarven face/infiltrator is probably the hardest to make of them all, at least for me, and that's why: it is very hard to deal with priority D as a mundane Dwarf. This particular character needs high skills and attributes AND some money on top of it. Sum to ten would be easy and clean with BBCCE array, so I advise to use it. But the easy way is not our way so we'll start with Magic E, Resources D ("I can take a hit there", remember?), Meta C, Skills B, Attributes A. For some reason Dwarves have a better metatype C option than Orks, starting with 1 SAP vs Ork's 0.
Quote
B5, A5, R4, S3, W5, I5, L4, C6, Edge 2; Stealth skill group 5, Pistols 6(+2 holdouts or SA), Negotiation 6(+2 Bargain), Perception 6 (+2 Search), Con 5,
Lockpicking 3, Hardware 3, Gymnastics 2, Computers 2.
We have a very solid statline which allows us for a little too liberal use of certain substances. Coupled with some very light augmentation, it gives us an edge both in and out of combat. Karma would probably go towards even more contacts.

A Troll decker is probably my favourite. I want an adept decker because it should be fun and we haven't had an adept yet. Attributes get an E priority here because something just has to. Magic D for an adept, Resources C should be enough because there's not much room left with Skills B and Metatype A.
Quote
B5, A3, R2(5), S5, W3, I4, L5, C1, Edge 2, Magic 6; Electronics Skill group 5, Hacking 6(+2 Hosts), Electronic Warfare 6, Cybercombat 6, Longarms 6(+2 Sporting rifles), Sneaking 5, Etiquette 3(+2 Matrix), Perception 1
C-K Analyst and Little Hornet cyberdecks cost under 100k and with some modding they really become something great.

Don't be afraid to try something new, everyone!
« Last Edit: (01:03:10/04-22-17) by ZeldaBravo »
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gargaM0NK

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #5 on: (10:10:27/04-22-17) »
HOWEVER.
Orks, trolls, and dwarves are not as popular as humans and elves not because they are bad at their jobs. It's because they have a high opportunity cost. That's the real deal breaker with... everything, actually... That's why humans are such a solid pick for any role, you get 3 edge minimum and Magic priority is quite easy to define for yourself anyway. Other metatypes make you wiggle around trying to find a balance between what you want, and what the system allows you to have.
Well said! What you seem to be suggesting here is that characters who need to prioritize Metatype are consequently better at roles that don't Demand high prioritization in another category (an obvious one being Mages).

The key word is "best", though.  Outside of tank and/or close combat roles, orks and trolls may not be (purely numerically) optimal choices, but they are still viable choices.

That's a fair point. Perhaps I could have expressed my question better. Are there any other synergies for Dwarves, Orks, and (especially) Trolls?

Your roles are very biased.  For instance, you're implying that for a magician, the only thing that matters is their drain resist pool.  I could argue that since "Geek The Mage" is alive and well in the 2070's, picking a metatype that gives you added defense is a big deal.  As well, increasing your ability to take drain includes increasing your Stun or Physical track, both of which a dwarf provides, making them the best at spellcasting.

This is my favorite answer so far. In my chart, I'm stating the obvious synergy of Attributes, but I'm overlooking the benefit of Damage Tracks.

So we have a couple different approaches so far:
  • Magic (or another priority) at E so everything else is D or better
  • Low-edge to minimize the impact of Metatype on your priority (Elves are partially so good because D vs E isn't that much of a sacrifice)
  • Choose another role that takes advantage of the increased damage track

I'll pose the question another way then. Say I have a player who loves Trolls from LotR.. Never played Shadowrun before, but knows he wants to play a Troll. But we have another character who already made a Tanky Close Combat specialist, and they don't want to double up on that role. He doesn't know enough about the roles to have a preference, he just wants to feel competent enough to contribute to the team. What's your next suggestion for him?  What about Ork? Or same thing for Dwarf?

gargaM0NK

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #6 on: (10:32:34/04-22-17) »
Alright. Doing some quick tinkering, it seems like the more Resource-driven builds (Decker, Rigger, Fire Support) tend to have more wiggle room for Metatype Priority.

This led me to the following:
  • Ork/Troll Deckers/Riggers (for a longer Physical Track vs Hot Sim Biofeedback)
  • Ork Street Sams (for higher Physical Limit)
  • Dwarven Negotiators (for Composure Tests)
  • Dwarven Tanks (for Narcojet resistance)

firebug

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #7 on: (12:36:13/04-22-17) »
A troll could still make good use of their STR to be a Heavy Weapons Adept, if he'd like that.  I'm talking Stoner-Ares M202 Medium Machine Gun, and/or an ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade Launcher, saving up to get a Krime Cannon after the game begins.  You need at least 8 STR to wield the MMG, which makes being a Troll a clear advantage there.  It also helps to be able to survive the incoming fire when you make yourself a giant target by shouting and firing full-auto into a crowd of enemies.

Alternatively, a Throwing Adept (making use of things like the Missile Mastery power in Street Grimoire) is significantly more subtle, while still taking advantage of the metatype's high STR.  This obviously isn't as optimal, but it has its upsides.  You cannot hack the rocks being thrown at you, the Adept doesn't need to be concerned with ammo, and can probably find something to throw just about anywhere, making it easy to appear totally unarmed.

In both of these builds, I'd still suggest some amount of close combat skill.  When you already have the STR for it, it's valuable should you be caught off-guard, or if you need to reload and would rather just hit someone with your giant (melee-hardened, I hope) gun.

For an Ork, if close-combat tank is off the table, my next suggestion would be an Intuition-tradition Magician, such as Sioux or Chaos Magician.  The improved BOD (3 points higher) means about 1 less damage from every attack, which helps keep that magician safe, and since healing Stun is a BOD+WIL roll, they recover Stun faster, which can help if they take Drain ahead of time and get an hour to rest.  For Dwarf, this is the same, only Dwarves get a bit less BOD for more WIL, which comes out to about the same, but with higher Drain Resist and a potentially larger Stun track.
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Glyph

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #8 on: (16:23:46/04-22-17) »
Dwarves, orks, and trolls have Attribute bonuses that are good for more than combat roles.  For non-combat roles, those higher minimums mean that certain Attributes are already good enough, freeing up more points for mental Attributes - and maybe even letting you take a lower Priority for Attributes.  For example, an ork mage or decker will usually be fine with an ork's base Body of 4 and Strength of 3.

For the hypothetical player wanting to play a troll, with the tank slot already filled, there are still plenty of options.  The main book already has an example of a troll rigger, and a decker is equally do-able.  A troll mage or mystic adept would let the player be combat-oriented without infringing on the tank's specialty.  And finally, a dedicated face is a good choice, because they have so many ways to get dice that their lower Charisma doesn't penalize them as much as you might think.

Here is a quick troll face build:
[spoiler]
Troll Face

BREAKDOWN (Priority)
A: Troll (6)
B: Adept (Magic: 6, 1 rating: 4 skill)
C: Resources 140,000 Nuyen
D: Attributes (14)
E: Skills (18/0)

Starting Karma (25)
Positive Qualities - 19
Negative Qualities - <25>
Etiquette: 3 - 12
Intimidate: 2 - 6
Pilot Ground Craft: 1 - 2
Stealth Skill Group: 1 - 5
Unarmed Combat: 2 - 6


=Attributes=
Body: 5
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 5
Willpower: 5
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2
Charisma: 4

Edge: 6
Magic: 6 (5)

Essence: 5.00
Initiative: 6 + 1d6

=Positive Qualities=
First Impression
Hawk Eye
Mentor Spirit - Raven

=Negative Qualities=
Allergy: Silver, Moderate
Code of Honor (Innocent Noncombattants)

=Active Skills=
Con/Fast-Talk: 6/+2
Etiquette: 3
Intimidate: 2
Negotiation/Bargaining: 6/+2
Perception: 3
Pilot Ground Craft: 1
Pistols/Semi-Automatics: 4/+2
Stealth Skill Group: 1
Unarmed Combat: 2

=Knowledge Skills=
Languages>
English: N
Or'zet: 3

Other>
Sprawl Life/Ork Underground: 3/+2
Underworld Politics: 3

=Contacts=
Fixer (Connection: 5/Loyalty: 2)
Gang Boss (Connection: 3/Loyalty: 2)

=Adept Powers=
Authoritative Tone: 3
Cool Resolve: 3
Kinesics: 2
Traceless Walk
Voice Control: 1

=Cyberware=
Datajack
Simrig

=Bioware=
Clean Metabolism
Cosmetic Biomods, Minor (1,000 Nuyen)
Tailored Pheromones: 3

=Lifestyle and Gear=
40,000 Nuyen remaining.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #9 on: (17:45:46/04-22-17) »
Where'd Fancy Derek go?
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
there is autosofts for everything  8)

Tarislar

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #10 on: (18:53:11/04-22-17) »
I'll pose the question another way then. Say I have a player who loves Trolls from LotR.. Never played Shadowrun before, but knows he wants to play a Troll. But we have another character who already made a Tanky Close Combat specialist, and they don't want to double up on that role. He doesn't know enough about the roles to have a preference, he just wants to feel competent enough to contribute to the team. What's your next suggestion for him?  What about Ork? Or same thing for Dwarf?

Anything you want.  1 Die is not a make it or break it point in this game, its only 1 in 3 chance of even getting a hit.

But to give you some ideas.

1.  Troll:  Plain old Samurai,  or,  Heavy Weapons Specialist ,  or,  Throwing Adept,  are all viable combat choices.
One less Agi isn't going to kill you w/ Cyber or Magic to boost things and having 5 Bod/Str before you apply ANY points is not a bad thing.

2 Orks & Dwarves are both solid options for any role as they give you a point or 3 in areas you already want to have some points in, Bod/Str/Will are all useful for most anyone & it just means even if you play someone that doesn't need STR that you don't look like a gimp w/ 1 STR dump stat.
The only thing I would suggest here is what level to take them at on the priority chart.  Take Orks at B & Dwarves at C if possible for the most bang for your buck unless your going Adept where Priorty A for Race can give you the most SAP.


Glyph

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #11 on: (18:57:16/04-22-17) »

Rooks

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #12 on: (00:13:10/04-23-17) »
I know the huge turn off for me for trolls and dwarves were the metahuman adaptation costs (even if my dwarven has kid sheath legs? really?) I mean you dont charge kids 20% more for living do you?

Kiirnodel

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #13 on: (01:07:05/04-23-17) »
Those booster seats and blocks for reaching the pedals in the car cost money man.

ZeldaBravo

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Re: Best Race for the Role
« Reply #14 on: (01:52:14/04-23-17) »
HOWEVER.
Orks, trolls, and dwarves are not as popular as humans and elves not because they are bad at their jobs. It's because they have a high opportunity cost. That's the real deal breaker with... everything, actually... That's why humans are such a solid pick for any role, you get 3 edge minimum and Magic priority is quite easy to define for yourself anyway. Other metatypes make you wiggle around trying to find a balance between what you want, and what the system allows you to have.
Well said! What you seem to be suggesting here is that characters who need to prioritize Metatype are consequently better at roles that don't Demand high prioritization in another category (an obvious one being Mages).

That's right, but make it two categories. Troll Faces are much easier to do than Troll Streetsams, despite their low racial CHA maximum. That's because a speaker archetype generally doesn't need a lot of money or very high attributes across the board, at least not to an extent as a fighter archetype does.

As for the "Best" metatype for a role? [spoiler]Human is #1 in everything forever because mathematics says so. Other than that -[/spoiler] it depends on a player's playstyle mostly. As a Troll Magician, you can reliably overcast a F12 Fireball and live through it, same with binding powerful spirits. A Troll Physical Adept can punch through a bank vault, 32P DV to barriers is no joke. A Troll Face is not too afraid if negotiations in a seedy bar can go south. Metatybes are generally not best in roles, but rather unique. Some can do things others can't. That's about it.
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