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Author Topic: Extend maximum pistol range?  (Read 658 times)

Glonthein

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #15 on: (05:24:44/04-12-17) »
Novocrane : I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements" since it isn't improving your vision, but giving you instructions to aim better with your gun. I may be playing with the wording there, but to me, not being able to combine hawk eye + smartlink would be the same as not being able to combine hawk eye + HUD.

Kincaid

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #16 on: (09:43:03/04-12-17) »
As a few others have mentioned, to get more range from a pistol, you really need to change the cartridge.  Something like a Thompson/Center Contender would do the trick, but that's pretty far away from a light pistol.
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Mirikon

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #17 on: (17:53:59/04-12-17) »
except suppressors in real life are essentially barrel extenders and also increase the distance and speed of bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPdjGa0VB8
And trying to compare real life firearms to game mechanics is foolhardy, at best. Otherwise we have to get into why someone taking a machine gun and holding the trigger down for a full combat turn on full auto somehow shoots more bullets if they've got three passes instead of if they have two, or how someone with one pass using suppressive fire will have the effect for the whole combat turn, but someone with three passes using suppressive fire on their first pass uses the same number of bullets but gets 1/3 of the effect.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #18 on: (18:15:37/04-12-17) »
except suppressors in real life are essentially barrel extenders and also increase the distance and speed of bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPdjGa0VB8
And trying to compare real life firearms to game mechanics is foolhardy, at best. Otherwise we have to get into why someone taking a machine gun and holding the trigger down for a full combat turn on full auto somehow shoots more bullets if they've got three passes instead of if they have two, or how someone with one pass using suppressive fire will have the effect for the whole combat turn, but someone with three passes using suppressive fire on their first pass uses the same number of bullets but gets 1/3 of the effect.

At least for that second part, I've always ruled that if a character continues to do nothing except holding their suppressive fire, they can continue to do so for the entire Combat Turn. In that way, having more Combat Turns doesn't change "how long" suppressive fire takes, just gives that character more options to change their mind if they so choose. What really blows the mind-hole, there though is that no matter if they choose to continue or not, it still only uses 20 bullets.

Rooks

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #19 on: (00:44:15/04-13-17) »
Though it may appear as a “spray and pray” technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts
focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves.

page 179 core

Kiirnodel

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #20 on: (01:03:25/04-13-17) »
At least for that second part, I've always ruled that if a character continues to do nothing except holding their suppressive fire, they can continue to do so for the entire Combat Turn. In that way, having more Combat Turns doesn't change "how long" suppressive fire takes, just gives that character more options to change their mind if they so choose. What really blows the mind-hole, there though is that no matter if they choose to continue or not, it still only uses 20 bullets.

I was away from book before, but I found the line that supports this idea: "The suppressive fire zone lasts until the end of the Combat Turn as long as the firer does not move or commit to any other action." That's the last sentence of the first paragraph of Suppressive Fire on page 179.

So yeah, as long as a character doesn't move or choose to take other actions, suppressive fire lasts until the end of the Combat Turn even if they have additional passes. You don't use up 20 bullets for each pass, just each Combat Turn.

Novocrane

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #21 on: (08:57:00/04-15-17) »
I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements"
I am. It's a Vision Enhancement (core 444), and it's electronic.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #22 on: (12:03:11/04-15-17) »
I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements"
I am. It's a Vision Enhancement (core 444), and it's electronic.
Except you're still comparing apples and oranges. Mechanically, they negate/reduce different penalties and apply bonuses to different dice pools, and from an-universe perspective they're nothing alike either. Hawk Eye makes your vision objectively superior, while smartlink puts a target in your vision to aim at that compensates for the wind and other factors. In fact, given that smartlink can be used while using ultravision, I'd go as far to argue that smartlink is no more a vision enhancement than iron sights are, it's just called that because it goes in all the same places actual vision enhancements do.

I could see a smartlink implant messing with the perfect balance that make the eyes of a character with Hawk Eye so damn good, but that doesn't apply to external smartlinks. Worst case scenario, work something out with a holographic sight, so it doesn't involve AR in any way.
« Last Edit: (12:12:23/04-15-17) by Ghost Rigger »

Glonthein

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #23 on: (12:49:09/04-15-17) »
Novocrane : If you take the Vision Enhancement table and say "everything in here isn't compatible with Hawk Eye", then there is a huge problem. Image link - which is the basic component of HUD and AR - is in that list, and it is, in my opinion, as much vision enhancement as Smartlink, if it isn't more. By your logic, it would mean that anyone with the Hawk Eye quality would be unable to use lens or glasses with image link, meaning they would have absolutely no access to a HUD or AR.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but to me, this is the direct implication of what you are saying, and if it was supposed to be read the way you say, I don't see how it should be a positive quality.

Edit : What Ghost said.

Novocrane

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #24 on: (13:53:22/04-15-17) »
it would mean that anyone with the Hawk Eye quality would be unable to use lens or glasses with image link, meaning they would have absolutely no access to a HUD or AR.
There are multiple ways to get AR. Not all involve imaging devices, electronic vision enhancements, or eye related cyberware.

It's also worth pointing out that the quality being incompatible does not mean that a character cannot use these things - only that the quality does not function as written with them.

Except you're still comparing apples and oranges.
No, I'm applying a restriction against electronic vision enhancements to the things that fall under the heading (in multiple locations) of 'vision enhancements', and are electronic.
« Last Edit: (13:59:22/04-15-17) by Novocrane »

jerryme

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #25 on: (08:27:47/04-16-17) »
After reading it myself I cannot help but agree with Novocrane. Allow me to offer my fluff explanation: When you have hawk eyes the smartlink's reticle looks pixelated.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #26 on: (21:07:18/04-16-17) »
Well then, clearly the solution is to pay premiums for an AR setup of higher resolution, or to do away with AR altogether and use a very high-tech set of iron sights as part of your smartgun system; you'd still need to wear glasses because the system needs to know which way your head is pointing and where you're looking, but they don't need to convey any information (that directly contributes to shooting, you might still need it to display ammo count and whatnot). As long as something manages to correct your aim by saying "aim a bit more that way", it's good enough.
« Last Edit: (21:13:59/04-16-17) by Ghost Rigger »

Mirikon

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #27 on: (22:07:44/04-16-17) »
Honestly, if you are getting into fights that are well out of pistol range, then there are better, and less minmaxy, ways to deal with the situation. I mean, Long Range for a heavy pistol is 21-40m. That's roughly 69-131 feet (or 33-44 yards) away. We're talking a third of a football field.

If you're getting into fights outside that range, some better choices would be:
Picking up Automatics so you can get an assault rifle
Learning Sneaking and Perception so you can get closer before combat starts
Learn how to break off and force the enemy to come to you

SR isn't Call of Duty. If you are finding yourself charging into bullets, then you probably need to rethink your strategy, rather than trying to get your gun to shoot further.
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Novocrane

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #28 on: (22:10:58/04-16-17) »
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ok GR. I wouldn't trust aiming a firearm to a GPS navigation system with delusions of grandeur ("Thirty five degree angle, left. Aim up, twenty Degrees. Target has moved. Aim right, five degrees."), but I'm strangely ok with you doing it somewhere I'm not.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Extend maximum pistol range?
« Reply #29 on: (22:24:49/04-16-17) »
That's basically what the default smartgun system is though. Granted it's incredibly intuitive and user-friendly and any non-AR substitute would need to be able to match it in those performance categories, but I see no reason they could not be made. After all, if modern iron sights can compensate for windage and elevation, why not futuristic ones made of holograms and/or nanobots?

 

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