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Author Topic: Gas Grenade and Narcojet  (Read 433 times)

  • Omae
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Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« on: (12:32:59/04-08-17) »
A PC throws a gas grenade at the start of combat into the with PCs and foes in 10m of it. He scores the 3 hits, and there is no scatter. The grenade has narcojet IX in it.

1. When are people "affected" by narcojet?
2. When do they roll a Toxin Resistance test?
3. Could someone apply a gas mask, respirator, antidote patch in time to avoid or better resist the nacrojet?
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #1 on: (16:28:50/04-08-17) »
First up, Narcojet is an injection-vector toxin and it doesn't have a rating. I think you mean Neuro-Stun IX, which has a contact/inhalation-vector.

1. The people are exposed to the toxin right away, as soon as they enter the gas cloud (or the gas cloud surrounds them) they are exposed to it, and therefore they will be affected by it.

2. You roll the Toxin Resistance test at the end of the Combat Turn if the speed is Immediate or delayed by the number of Combat Turns indicated in the Speed. Neuro-Stun has a Speed of 1 Combat Turn, therefore the targets would need to make the resistance test at the end of the next Combat Turn.

3. A gas mask or respirator would not help someone who is already exposed, but it could potentially help someone if they went running into the cloud. Putting on a Gas Mask after you've breathed in the gas is pretty much useless. Against Neuro-Stun specifically, because it is a Contact-vector as well as Inhalation, it can be argued that neither of these protections would help because you aren't protected on the contact vector. Now, Chem-protection (Armor mod) plus Respirators would mean you're covered on both fronts. Some GMs might let you use your higher resistance bonus, but I think it is more likely you need to resist with the lowest of the bonuses.

An antidote patch, however, could be applied before you make the resistance test to give its bonus on the resistance test. That's actually the whole point of the antidote patch. It is specifically mentioned in both the Antidote Patch and Antidotes in the Toxin section that the window to apply an Antidote is very small. It must be applied before the toxin has taken effect, and if you aren't applying it until after being exposed, that leaves only a few seconds of a window. Remember, Antidote patches also work for 20 minutes if you know what you're going up against.

Extra. I also want to point out that gas grenades aren't necessarily immediate, depending on how the grenade is set up. For example, if they are timed, rather than impact triggered, then it might take a couple seconds before the grenade goes off. Tactically speaking, for example, if a team frequently uses gas grenades they might keep them on timed triggers to give other team members the chance to put on their gas masks. That way, grenade goes out, rest of team sees it, puts on gas masks, then it goes off and the team is safe. If the team were to put on the gas masks first, it might warn whoever is about to get gassed and they might focus fire on the grenade holder, or something similar.

  • Omae
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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #2 on: (18:35:30/04-08-17) »
First up, Narcojet is an injection-vector toxin and it doesn't have a rating. I think you mean Neuro-Stun IX, which has a contact/inhalation-vector.
That one! haha I was at the gym when I posted this and didn't have enough brain for that :P

2. You roll the Toxin Resistance test at the end of the Combat Turn if the speed is Immediate or delayed by the number of Combat Turns indicated in the Speed. Neuro-Stun has a Speed of 1 Combat Turn, therefore the targets would need to make the resistance test at the end of the next Combat Turn.
Awkward, but neat.

Extra. I also want to point out that gas grenades aren't necessarily immediate, depending on how the grenade is set up. For example, if they are timed, rather than impact triggered, then it might take a couple seconds before the grenade goes off. Tactically speaking, for example, if a team frequently uses gas grenades they might keep them on timed triggers to give other team members the chance to put on their gas masks. That way, grenade goes out, rest of team sees it, puts on gas masks, then it goes off and the team is safe. If the team were to put on the gas masks first, it might warn whoever is about to get gassed and they might focus fire on the grenade holder, or something similar.
Can grenades only have the one setting or are all of the options available, and you need to choose one before you could use it?
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
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Rooks

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #3 on: (14:55:02/04-09-17) »
Well, you can use nacrojet if it mix it with dmso also this is why I have my characters wear the dry suit underneath their armor with a helmet or ballistic mask with gas mask or hazmat suit

ClaytonCross

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #4 on: (20:41:00/04-09-17) »
Well, you can use nacrojet if it mix it with dmso also this is why I have my characters wear the dry suit underneath their armor with a helmet or ballistic mask with gas mask or hazmat suit

Just a semi side note here.

Having worn a hazmat suite, If I was your GM and you were wearing armor with one and running around normally I would required you to roll for exhaustion from over heating regularly. A hazmat suit is already hot enough and so is armor but together that is insane. Each failure would raise you a level and per SRB p107, you would die if you reach level 6. That's not intended as punishment for proper planning but as a consideration for it. Your going to need to plan cool down breaks to let your body breath. At the same time I feel like I would also be more inclined to through a few chemical grenades once in a while so that you would get use out of your preparation. Again not intended to punish the group because your prepared but to highlight that your being prepared has its benefits as well. Similarly, if I fine a player has glare resistance and all the missions seem to be a night I may through a flash bang once in a while. It seems important to justify player investments into preparations while limiting its impact on those who did not so its not a necessity for the group but a shining moment for a player.

Players should also be aware that if they all go out and buy hazmat gear for no reasons your also provoking  reactions from your GM.  If your using nacrojet grenades like the OP said. Be prepared that your GM will likely respond in kind. When you "remind" your GM about something it often becomes part of the campaign. So if your buying/making gas grenades you may also want to pick up hazmat gear and antitoxin patches. When you get those expect your GM to through in a few dart guns that stick you through your hazmat gear. Now that you have started that path the GM will also step around it once in a while to keep you on your toes and since he has been reading up on the chemical rules...

Sounds like fun though.

Novocrane

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #5 on: (12:19:16/04-10-17) »
Quote
Having worn a hazmat suite
How lucky we are, to have a traveller of both time and dimensions to inform us on the state of armour and ee suits in the sixth world. :)

Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #6 on: (17:46:54/04-10-17) »
Quote
Having worn a hazmat suite
How lucky we are, to have a traveller of both time and dimensions to inform us on the state of armour and ee suits in the sixth world. :)

The technology will change a bit, buit not so much as to eliminate the issues as pointed out. Hazmat/Environmental gear does not breathe out of necessity, and armor is also encumbering and hot... Combined they lead to serious overheating problems over time (and that time is generally shorter than people lacking practical experience expect it to be). 
« Last Edit: (10:17:05/04-11-17) by Tym Jalynsfein »
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Novocrane

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #7 on: (00:52:52/04-11-17) »
OTOH, there have been far greater changes in other technologies. This is a game that mostly pretends to run on realism, uses movie logic a fair percentage of the time, and dips into no logic when it feels like it.

That you haven't solved the problem, or read about it being solved today, is not reason enough to say it can't be solved and SR needs rules to cover how you will die in short order while wearing an EE suit or chemical seal.

ClaytonCross

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #8 on: (02:34:13/04-11-17) »
OTOH, there have been far greater changes in other technologies. This is a game that mostly pretends to run on realism, uses movie logic a fair percentage of the time, and dips into no logic when it feels like it.

That you haven't solved the problem, or read about it being solved today, is not reason enough to say it can't be solved and SR needs rules to cover how you will die in short order while wearing an EE suit or chemical seal.

A fair point. I would say that door swings both ways. It just as presumptuous for you to presume a property that would exist in known technology was fixed in this alternate reality when nothing implies that it was as it is for me to assume it has not been fixed. The rules are made as guidelines and there is room for interpretation by the GM and role play by the player. So if a GM thinks over heating the player and having him take that into account adds to the game. There is no reason to stop him from playing it that way. Alternatively, If a player doesn't want to deal with it and wants the protection the GM should consider letting him by a variant suite or cooling pack to reduce or negate the issue. There is no problem with a bit of role playing cause by player or GM decisions in an RPG. Similarly, hosters are in the books for guns but sheaths are not listed for swords/knives. I might assume he got a sheath with the blade and another might assume its not mentioned so obviously blades don't need sheaths in the future they only cut when intended too. Both are adding a property not mentioned in the book. Neither could be wrong but I tend to air to what I know IRL as a basis for how I fill in unknown properties.
« Last Edit: (02:37:07/04-11-17) by ClaytonCross »

Rooks

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #9 on: (03:47:48/04-11-17) »
Chrome Flesh has chemical replusion which makes immunity to dmso  Run and Gun has Ace of Swords which has Features: Holster (Scabbard) for swords. Also dry suit gives chemical seal when wearing a helmet as does Full Body, Security and Mili Spec Armor

Kiirnodel

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #10 on: (13:16:53/04-11-17) »
Can grenades only have the one setting or are all of the options available, and you need to choose one before you could use it?

My gut reaction would have been to say that all grenades come with all three options, but I went ahead and looked up the rule. Based on the wording, it actually seems like a Grenade comes with 1 of these options, likely chosen at time of purchase.

Quote
Grenades are small, self-contained explosive or gasdelivery packages. They may come with a built-in timer to detonate after a pre-set amount of time (usually three seconds), a motion-sensor set to detonate on impact, or a wireless link set to detonate upon remote command. The type of detonation device determines the special rules and timing of grenade explosions.

They use the list form of "may come with X, Y, or Z" which definitely makes it seem like it has just the one.

Jack_Spade

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #11 on: (13:31:53/04-11-17) »
Not necessarily. "Or" can also be inclusive. It would be more definitive if they'd had used "either... or"
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Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #12 on: (15:55:11/04-11-17) »
InclusiveOR or ExclusiveOR... that is the Question... :)
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

Kiirnodel

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #13 on: (16:50:21/04-11-17) »
Looking through the rules (pg 181 for general Grenades, plus 434-5 for the Gear listing), I'm going to go ahead and re-reverse my thought and say that the list is non-exclusive. That is to say that the grenades must have a trigger method, but nothing keeps you from having a grenade that could be triggered by all three.

With the digital-age of Shadowrun, I could easily see standard grenades coming with a tiny processor connected to a triggering mechanism. That processor also has an accelerometer sensor (the device for triggering an impact-trigger. But it also has the processing power to do a timed or wireless signal trigger.

You could probably buy grenades that have one (or more) of those methods disabled (for example, a paranoid character might disable wireless on his grenades to prevent them from being hack-able. You might even be able to find throwback grenades that use an old-fashioned fuse instead of a computerized trigger.

The only exception (I think) are grenade launcher minigrenades, those are listed specifically as having an impact trigger or airburst-link, I don't think those are designed to utilize a timed trigger at all.

Novocrane

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Re: Gas Grenade and Narcojet
« Reply #14 on: (22:48:10/04-12-17) »
I would say that door swings both ways. It just as presumptuous for you to presume a property that would exist in known technology was fixed in this alternate reality when nothing implies that it was as it is for me to assume it has not been fixed.
I disagree.

Out of two interpretations, one requires reading the rules entry for the item, where the other requires going beyond the given rules to apply real world modern day properties to an item of alternate world future technology. You don't need to go past the core book to find high grade full body armour with a chemical seal and no heating issues. Expensive and rare when you want 18 armour to go with it, but I see zero question the technology exists in setting.

Incidentally, in looking up RL hazmat cooling, I noticed they have considerably upped the length of time suits can be worn in recent years, through newer cooling vests and by positioning the oxygen flow facing downwards over the wearer's head. Even RL tech is advancing, and we still have decades to go before 2075.
« Last Edit: (22:49:43/04-12-17) by Novocrane »