Author Topic: Question on object possession specifically on arrows  (Read 288 times)

spaceconcrete

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I was playing around with an archer character and come across the idea of using arrow/bolt as the delivery mechanism for all sort of magical nasty.
You can enchant contact spell that has low drain even at high force, or indirect spell that cannot really be dodge because it is already inside of you.
Instead of having to tie a grenade on your arrow and suffer 2 accuracy, elemental grenade have no such problem.

Then I thought about spirit possession on arrow head or shaft.
Situation 1:  Let's say, I ask an air or bird spirit to possess the shaft and guide the arrow and hold my/its action until we can act together.
Would this work?  How would the dice pool be like?  I would make the attack roll and what would the spirit do?

Situation 2:  In the book, it says that possessing an object increase the structural rating of an object by half of the spirit's force.  So I can have a spirit possessing a shaft to increase it's rating by half of the spirit's force right? 
I would imagine a wooden shaft can reach rating 5 or 6 considering British Longbow was probably a rating 5 bow if not 6.  You can technically have a rating 8 or 9 vampire killing stake by having a spirit possessing the shaft.  Certainly more subtle then an arrow exploding into fire.

Situation 3:  I used a high AP head like mono point to pierce the thick armor of the target, and order the spirit possessing the arrow to attack the target how would that play out?  I imaging spirit that doesn't have a elemental attack cant really do anything, but let's say a fire spirit will probably use elemental attack to try to cook the sad bastard.  Would armor be a factor when the arrow already penetrate the armor?  Can the dude even dodge?  If we revisit the plant spirit in a wooden shaft for maximum vampire pwnage, can I command the wood spirit to just barbed up and grow inside him so he can't even remove the shaft?

Jack_Spade

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #1 on: (03:19:57/04-05-17) »
Points for creativity  ;D

But don't be surprised if your spirit index goes through the roof with stuff like that.
For arrow steering you can use the teamwork rules for combat. Also, just because the durability is increased the arrows won't have a damage increase.
As for the spirit attacking once embedded: That would be just a normal melee attack since there is no reason the defender wouldn't as part of his defense just rip the arrow out.
Also, don't forget that being shot by arrow and suddenly stopped would also damage the spirit - it should receive the base damage of your shot

But thanks for the idea. Now I'm wondering about a psionic mage that binds F1 Fire spirits into APDS bullets of a Ruger Super Warhawk to take care of supernatural heavy hitters.
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Glonthein

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #2 on: (06:09:51/04-05-17) »
When I think I invested 50k nuyen on my archer adept to develop anti-vehicles arrows (which basically were rockets with less damage)... Actually what you could do is enchant some arrows with alchemy to have any spell you would like (using a contact trigger and enchanting gloves from Hard Target so the arrow doesn't explode when you draw it, this is best if you have a teammate who can do it for you, so it doesn't cost extra nuyen), and profit.
I don't know much about possession rules, so I'm not really sure how that would work, but I guess mages with a possession tradition could do some nasty things with that.

spaceconcrete

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #3 on: (13:55:10/04-05-17) »
Spirit receiving damaged would be a problem then.
When having a DV of 10P+ per shot the spirit can easily be dead in a few shot, then spirit index would suck really hard at that point.
Still I like the idea of putting a prepared vessel inside the person and have a spirit go inside and wrack the guy.
Might just have the spirit do it post fire then, and use a barbed head to make it really hard to get out.

For the shaft rating, I was mostly thinking how a rating 8 bow can't fire a rating 5 arrow due to the arrow would get shattered on impact.
That mean an anti vampire wood stake shaft can at maximum be fire by a rating 5 bow that would really suck on damage and would likely not pen the armor.
A spirit can reinforce the rating and prevent it from shattering.

Thanks, awesome.

Glonthein

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #4 on: (14:25:13/04-05-17) »
About shaft rating, you can totally fire a rating 5 arrow with a rating 8 bow without destroying said arrow, rules are written in such manners that you just won't be doing a full draw, and be dealing the damages as if you had a rating 5 bow.
Now, for the anti-vampire stuff, I think a rating 8 arrow could still be made of composite materials, with wood included in said materials. Since it wouldn't be pure wood, the allergy would be treated as one rank under the normal one, with a minimum of mild. Not the best thing, but still has its uses. Won't be legit for rating 9 or 10 arrows though, except if they are made in some magical wood that I don't know about but probably exists somewhere.
About the spirit thing, if a spirit possessing an arrow/object is treated the same way as a spirit  in physical form, don't they have hardened armor ? Unless you are using low level spirits with a very high strength character, the chance that you are going to deal him damages is unlikely at best, unless i'm missing something.

Reaver

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #5 on: (21:24:01/04-05-17) »
you have a couple other  issues as well.

Quote
Street Grimoire Page 197

....The spirit
can use any of its powers through the vessel
itself, but it can only move the vessel in ways
the vessel can normally perform. For example,
a spirit possessing a gun can fire the gun but
cannot move the gun or access any smartgun
functions....

So an arrow is... Just an arrow. It lays there and does nothing on its own. and even when launched from a bow, the spirit can't direct it, change its course, or alter its movement in any way...






(didn't we have this exact topic come up a couple of months ago?)
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ClaytonCross

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #6 on: (21:40:02/04-05-17) »
Use Quebracho wood a red and white would also known as Axe Breaker wood. It is nearly as strong as metal. The of course they are also heavier and a specialty version so I would say triple the Availability (resulting in much higher prices) and half the range due to weight for arrows that rarely break. They would be better for crossbow bolts. Since it is a real world material and is renewable I see no reason not to allow it. You just would not want to use them as your normal arrows. It makes since to look for this kind of material if you hunting vampires though.

As Reaver posted, I am not sure what a spirit possessing it does. Although you could put a mechanical drill on the end and have the spirit wind it deeper into the target. If you also have one way hooks to prevent pilling it out that could suck.

Reaver

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #7 on: (21:55:20/04-05-17) »
I wonder how well that wood would work with what he is talking about.

A modern composite bow with its 300+ pound pull weight and offset shafts, not an issue....

But a long bow, especially an English longbow, you have Archer's Paradox to deal with; The curving of the arrow around the shaft, and what is known as the 'Bendy flight' of arrow... (Which has been suggested, helps in the penetration of the arrow).

I'm don't know if such a hard wood would have the flex needed to be a good longbow arrow. (Again, modern composite bows, not an issue.) What is Quebracho's flex like?


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ClaytonCross

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #8 on: (22:51:50/04-05-17) »
Well according to the wood index:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/bow-woods/

If you fill in the information for Quebracho wood:
http://www.wood-database.com/quebracho/

Then round to the hundredths place like the rest of there premeasured woods listed. You get 8.53

The best arrows are 10.22 to 13.79 (higher score being better)
The worst arrows are 6.56 to 5.71 (lowest being the worst)

This puts "Axe breaker" wood be below the half way point between the best and worst arrows. With that in mind it would work but it would not be great. As I said before, it would be better on a crossbow. I actually used it in an RPG game to make wood daggers that would not break in armor or fighting metal weapons because I had a spell to enhance all wooden weapons. It made for interesting design but they were very expensive and hard to replace. Kind of the effect you would have using them as a vampire hunter. The would work great, but missing a shot and shooting and arrow out a window would suck. It would be better for wooden knives and swords I imagine. Less chance of loss.

Reaver

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #9 on: (23:35:29/04-05-17) »
yea, it was recommended to me for tool handles, as all my tool handles have to be non-conductive. Just not sure I want to pay the import fees for it when I have good, cheaper local products... even if it would give my tools a unique look..
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spaceconcrete

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #10 on: (00:31:00/04-06-17) »
you have a couple other  issues as well.

Quote
Street Grimoire Page 197

....The spirit
can use any of its powers through the vessel
itself, but it can only move the vessel in ways
the vessel can normally perform. For example,
a spirit possessing a gun can fire the gun but
cannot move the gun or access any smartgun
functions....

So an arrow is... Just an arrow. It lays there and does nothing on its own. and even when launched from a bow, the spirit can't direct it, change its course, or alter its movement in any way...






(didn't we have this exact topic come up a couple of months ago?)

Well there is seeker shaft which the fetching can actually move,
And I would imagine an air spirit can alter arrow trajectory with it's energy aura.
But ya it is just a thought that I wanted to get some opinion from people who are more experienced with the rule.

Gratuitous Boom

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Re: Question on object possession specifically on arrows
« Reply #11 on: (08:25:31/04-15-17) »
An interesting property of possessing an arrow would be that it becomes dual-natured and therefore bypasses Immunity to Natural Weapons. You essential get an arrow of spirit slaying (also useful against projecting mages).* You don't even need a spirit. You could use the Homunculus ritual to animate your arrows then your spirits can possess the homunculus. This would allow for the teamwork test (GM ruling for that part) since the spirit can move its body and make additional attack tests when imbedded in the enemy.

*Edit: The arrowhead is what needs to be dual-natured to work as an anti-astral weapon, otherwise you would need a GM ruling for the damage done by a dual-natured wooden shaft. This may conflict with your idea of a teamwork test from possessing the shaft. I suppose you could do both.

While possessing the arrow the spirit only takes damage if the arrow's structure would take damage. Keep in mind that the arrow's structure and armor ratings are increased by half the possessing spirit's force while possessed. Also, if the homunculus ritual was used you need a GM ruling on whether a homunculus keep its armor rating; however, because a homunculus is 'alive' the spirit does not increase the structure or armor of the arrow but may increase it's body depending on the force of the spirit (hardwood is 6 structure, 8 armor FYI).

Edit: Forgot that structure was reduced by the width of the arrow. An arrows structure would be 1. That's a very fragile homunculus if it doesn't retain it's armor.

Using a spirit like this is dangerous since an attacked enemy could use a Break Weapon called shot to break the arrow without a defense test for the arrow or more simply a strength test to snap it with his hands. A homunculus may be more vulnerable (again depends on whether they keep their armor rating). This isn't a problem with astral entities but they would be able to attack the spirit/homunculus directly from the astral.

Ask your GM if you can use the reinforce spell to strengthen your wood arrows to be usable with a higher rating bow without penalties.
« Last Edit: (10:11:03/04-15-17) by Gratuitous Boom »