Author Topic: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves  (Read 6272 times)

lokii

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #15 on: (07:56:20/08-24-16) »
So while Court of Shadows certainly adds new things to the fae mythos in Shadowrun, as far as I can tell it doesn't really contradict what we knew before -- although it may contradict theories fans may have had.

Don't get me wrong there was a strong connection to faeries in all of the English European setting material for Shadowrun and in particular the Irish mythology for Tír na nÓg. So the myths have a true kernel, but it was either deliberately kept vague to make later additional connections to the Fourth World possible or they just didn't yet know in which direction to go. And of course then it got cut off along with the rest of the crossover.

And mind you I haven't yet looked into Court of Shadows, so I can really only base my impression on what others (you among them) have written about it. With that caveat out of the way, now that the focus is so much more on the fae mythology and the Court as a separate entity that existed in the last magical era rather than the reincarnation of some ancient precursor from either the Fourth World or before, the connection to Earthdawn seems more remote.

I'm tracing some of this stuff to build a timeline of clues for various crossover aspects (see here, will put it on the English wiki later). My impression so far on the background of Tír na nÓg, in the beginning they were all over the place. The London Sourcebook mentions a dark, anti-human Unseelie Court and a spirit force, the Daoine Shidhe (possibly connected to Tír Tairngire), both opposing the ruling Seelie Court. But Wyrm Talk briefly talks about "Lady Brane Deigh of the Daoine Sidhe". Which makes sense because I think the Daoine Shidhe are a remnant of the Tuatha De Danaan? Now, that was all before Earthdawn and obviously the portrayal of Tír na nÓg was changed a lot when it got its own sourcebook. I believe the only time the Daoine Shidhe come up again is the scene with Finvarra from the novel that you mentioned. There they seem to be connected to the court, not really an opposing force. Whereas the Unseelie became a social movement or dissident organisation in both Tír na nÓg and Shadows of Europe which I always thought was a nice variation of the standard Seelie/Unseelie relationship.

And really it is not Court of Shadows that made the Unseelie Court the more traditional opposing force with mirrored power, but Aetherology.

In regards to the Tirs, i've actually always viewed Tir Tairngire more as the recreation of Shosara and Tir Na Nog as the recreation of Wyrmwood, as noone in their right mind would want to recreate Bloodwood.

Though Shosara got into trouble for being too open minded whereas Tír Tairngire was run by some really xenophobic fellas. ;) Anyway I actually think the answer is more complicated and probably has to do with shifting ideas about the crossover behind the scenes.

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #16 on: (00:22:22/08-25-16) »
I think that only applies to the Seelie. Harlequin and Ehran had their first duel that is written about during the 18th century in France. Harley also implied he was King Richard the Lionheart when he cracked a joke that the armor Dunkie bequeathed him in his will still fit.

Always remember that these two have been going at it with each other for over five thousand years.  Yes, they have times of detente, like SR's 'present day', but both of them are hard-ass motherfuckers with egos the size of the Burj Dubai and chips on their shoulders the size of Gibraltar, and who are, quite simply, nowhere near as nice as your fiction makes the one of them out to be.

The only thing that might possibly be changing this is Aina Dupree's death.

That said, and getting back to the OP's question - actual IEs come from that whole dragon-heritage thing.
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EiraHaexa

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #17 on: (00:56:01/08-25-16) »
I think that only applies to the Seelie. Harlequin and Ehran had their first duel that is written about during the 18th century in France. Harley also implied he was King Richard the Lionheart when he cracked a joke that the armor Dunkie bequeathed him in his will still fit.

Always remember that these two have been going at it with each other for over five thousand years.  Yes, they have times of detente, like SR's 'present day', but both of them are hard-ass motherfuckers with egos the size of the Burj Dubai and chips on their shoulders the size of Gibraltar, and who are, quite simply, nowhere near as nice as your fiction makes the one of them out to be.

The only thing that might possibly be changing this is Aina Dupree's death.

That said, and getting back to the OP's question - actual IEs come from that whole dragon-heritage thing.

I know what you're referring to in my fiction. Nice? Maybe, maybe not. Manipulating the drek out of a young girl to further his own agenda? Absolutely. My advice is to keep in mind the 18 +/- year gap between SR's "present day" and when my fiction starts. I have been running under the assumption that Aina's death had a much larger effect on him than has been revealed thus far. There's also a 57 year gap between the first and second stories.
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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #18 on: (01:50:02/08-25-16) »
Kiiiind of one of my issues with your stories, but as I've said before, any extensive commentary would have to be via PM.  Ask if you are interested, but best also have thick skin.
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Opti

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #19 on: (20:41:37/08-26-16) »
"That book seem to imply that there is no such things as Immortal Elves, that Those elves where actually using the fact that time was running much slower in the Sellie Court to pass the whole 5th age in a single lifespan, am i the only one who saw this? Did i got it wrong?"

Court of Shadows is not making any statements about immortal elves. The Seelie Court proper (that is, the court that spent the 5th world on a fractured metaplane) is not dependent/related to immortal elves. Now, that statement I made is not 100% true. There are areas of overlap. Alachia, for example, and a few other bits yet to be revealed. But even Alachia's relationship with the 5th world court is not entirely clear. What seems to be clear is that the 6th world elves and at least a few immortals did make some attempts to throw their weight around in the court when the 6th world opened up some possibility for them to cross over, but that story hasn't been told in its entirety and didn't go exactly the way the 6th world elves wanted.
STILL... there is a 6th world born Queen over the court.

But... yes time works oddly on the metaplane and is more a tool for storytelling than any implication or commentary on any pre-existing SR lore.

Marzhin

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #20 on: (07:51:36/08-27-16) »
There are areas of overlap. Alachia, for example, and a few other bits yet to be revealed.

Looking forward to that :)
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lokii

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #21 on: (09:10:48/08-27-16) »
@opti: The quote from Worlds without End Marzhin referred to earlier in the thread—in full "The Seelie Court was but another incarnation of something much older and more sinister. How many of them remembered, or even knew, the full story?"—is that something that's on the radar from the perspective of Court of Shadows?

Opti

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #22 on: (13:02:22/08-27-16) »
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended.

Marzhin

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #23 on: (16:27:32/08-27-16) »
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended.

I actually prefer it that way, personally. Shadowrun should do its own thing, with some vague hints and connections to the previous worlds, rather than being "just" a remake of how things were in Earthdawn.
Which is why I really like how things are done in Court of Shadows. It's fresh, unique to the setting, and longtime fans can spot some well-hidden references below the surface. Much better than "Blood Wood 2.0"
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Opti

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #24 on: (22:50:50/08-27-16) »
As much as my heart wants to see ALL THE CONNECTIONS made particular, I find myself agreeing with you in practice. Having said that, I would never count out anything.

lokii

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #25 on: (07:49:58/08-28-16) »
Yes and no. The Court of Shadows stuff does not invalidate that, but for obvious reasons, they can't unpack it in the same way that Worlds without End intended. So, there are hints and some specifics, but as of yet, there have been vague callbacks and some specific detail about the Seelie past (and some Easter eggs....) but nothing shouts, "Look! The Seelie court is the continuation of Alachia's Blood Elf Court!" At least, not in the way that Worlds without End clearly intended

Hm, personally I have never seen it as this clear cut, though it certainly is a strong possibility. (By the way I feel it would have to be a continuation of Wyrm Wood. No one still around from that time, except maybe Alachia thinks going back to Blood Wood would be a good idea.) In the development history the Seelie Court was entered into Shadowrun before Earthdawn was created. So at the very least this folklore element is mixed in with the reincarnation of the Elven Court. Obviously Wyrm Wood was neither a fae court nor a world in between.

So actually it is the portions of Worlds without End in Tír na nÓg that give me the overall impression there must be more to the story. Aina recognizes all kinds of elements of the Irish mythology as history she personally witnessed. But none of that is part of the history of the Elven Court in Earthdawn. Between the time of Alachia's reign and the end of the Fourth World this other history Aina was part of must have taken place. So maybe the Seelie Court is what became of Blood Wood or maybe it is a continuation in the sense that all of the Elven courts in Earthdawn were said to be modeled after the one in Wyrm Wood. And there is the suggestion that Shosara wanted to become the new seat of the Elven Queen. Maybe the Seelie Court was another contender.
« Last Edit: (10:41:39/08-28-16) by lokii »

Opti

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #26 on: (23:34:10/08-28-16) »
Maybe. But the Court was cut off almost completely from the 5th world on its own fractured metaplane and only started being influenced in earnest again after the awakening. Any cultural trappings that Aina recognized could have been imports that happened once Brane Deigh became Queen, which was well before Aina and Harley showed up there (to say nothing of the fact that time moves differently there, so Brane could have had even more time to influence things there than the amount of time that was happening on Earth.

lokii

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #27 on: (07:00:57/08-29-16) »
Not quite sure where you are going with this argument of imported culture. Is the Seelie Court something else that the immortal elves just use to re-establish the Elven Court? Or is the Seelie Court the Elven Court of Blood Wood in direct continuation and the stuff from Irish mythology is added to it?

Either way it goes to my point about there being more to the story. If the Seelie Court is just used as the new seat of the Elven Queen and it existed as something else before, then "another incarnation of something much older and more sinister" could very well refer to it rather than Blood Wood and in any case it would have its own interesting history. If the Seelie Court is the Elven Court the question remains how and when it was settled by fae and why it moved to a metaplane. And that might very well be the answer to how it was cleansed.

I wonder though, if I understood the development blogs by Monica Valentinelli correctly the Tuatha De are the one's who lived in the Seelie Court at the end of the Fourth Age. The "cultural trappings" we are talking about come from Irish mythology. So would it not be their history or at least a fictionalised version of it? Or did the immortal elves plant stories during the Fifth World for example about the four treasures (one thing Aina recognizes is the Sword of Nuadha) so that they would be connected to the Tuatha De Danaan in mythology when in reality they were not? Seems overly complicated. :D

Of course in the end it goes to the question what would be enough to be considered a continuation of the old Elven Court. Any place could make that claim and try to support it with lineage, cultural artefacts, endorsements (maybe by a former Elven Queen), moral superiority or vision of true elficity. I would argue having Oak Heart or maybe a sapling would go a long way to support such a claim, but the tree probably did not survive.

By the way I don't have a real preference for how this should be handled. I would be really interested to know more about what scenarios the authors in the 90s had in mind when they came up with the crossover. Other than that, after almost two decades of speculation your guess is probably as good as mine. So on the one hand there is enough material to extrapolate and expansion holds the risk of going in a direction one does not like but on the other hand having some new stepping stones or even filling in some of the gaps with new ideas could be interesting as long as it plays nicely with established canon.
« Last Edit: (07:27:01/08-29-16) by lokii »

lokii

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #28 on: (07:01:51/08-29-16) »
As a side note the portrayal of the Seelie Court in Choose Your Enemies Carefully as half forest is much closer to Alachia's Palace than the castle from Worlds without End.

[..] she seems to view Tir Tairngire as the new version of Blood Wood

I meant to ask, what gives you the impression that is how Aina sees Tír Tairngire?

Marzhin

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Re: Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves
« Reply #29 on: (16:14:59/08-29-16) »
I meant to ask, what gives you the impression that is how Aina sees Tír Tairngire?

Mostly this passage, when Aina leaves Lugh Surehand's mansion:

Quote
The limo’s headlights illuminated row after row of dormant rose bushes.
Thorns.
So many thorns.

Not much, I know, but the fact Aina notices seemed to imply she was connecting Tir Tairngire to Blood Wood, in her mind.
Of course, she also has a dream about thorns when she's about to meet Lady Brane, so she might actually see both Tirs as new Blood Woods ^^
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