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Author Topic: [SR5] Bound spirit service length  (Read 1110 times)

ClaytonCross

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #15 on: (22:16:21/06-27-16) »
Doesn't it say a combat service only lasts until combat is completed? To me, that means if you tell a spirit to guard you. Then you enter combat. Once that combat is done the service is gone. The next combat is another service. So one service to "guard the team" would last until someone on the team finishes a fight. If your not getting into fights I guess they could stick around a bit but I am thinking most campaigns would have random gang attacks, bouncers, and intended combat enough to unbind spirits fairly quickly. If sprit is maintaining a spell for you it has its own timer built in already. Not sure were the problem lies with no listed duration unless GMs just want summunors to cast more.

Beta

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #16 on: (22:41:13/06-27-16) »
Personally I'm. Looking at it mostly in terms of reasonable npc usage.  If you can pay a few thousand nuyen and have something guarded almost indefinitely  it is very different than if you burn services by the day.

Even for established PC, if services are long enough I could see apartments guarded, for example.

Rosa

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #17 on: (16:11:01/06-28-16) »
Personally I'm. Looking at it mostly in terms of reasonable npc usage.  If you can pay a few thousand nuyen and have something guarded almost indefinitely  it is very different than if you burn services by the day.

Even for established PC, if services are long enough I could see apartments guarded, for example.

Well several SR books have stated that magical security is extremely expensive, so that alone favors the burn a service pr. day interpretation.

Herr Brackhaus

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #18 on: (05:52:30/06-29-16) »
The 12-24 hour period doesn't make much sense for tasks such as Aid Alchemy, Sorcery, and Study; these tasks can take a significant amount of time, and generally have oddly worded rules implying you cannot do anything else while performing the test (such as taking the time to summon and bind or rebind spirits).

Couple that with the fact that the duration of the bound task Spell Sustaining is measured in (Force x number of services spent) Combat Turns, and you've got a pretty wide range of options for possible durations.

Kiirnodel

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #19 on: (06:03:31/06-29-16) »
Good point. The 12-24hr or till dusk/dawn duration limit is primarily meant for services that don't list a specific duration and that can be stated as open-ended tasks. Both of the examples you stated don't really qualify in that way. As you stated, using a spirit to sustain your spell for you has a much more limited duration pre-written. We aren't really concerned about that being abused. Likewise, aiding sorcery has a pretty set "duration" in that they add to one test per service used. Again, I don't worry about a character abusing a bound spirit's terms of use for that.

What is most concerning is open ended tasks like "guard this warehouse" or "use the concealment power on me." These are open ended tasks and sustained spirit powers don't have that duration limit built in.

Herr Brackhaus

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #20 on: (06:12:57/06-29-16) »
Ah, I see. Well, spirit power use is definitely covered by RAW on page 302 of SR5: "If the power is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long itís sustained." So at least in the "use the Concealment power on me" scenario, that'll last until the spirit is no longer bound as far as RAW is concerned.

The other scenario of "guard this warehouse" could theoretically count as a combat service which has a duration of one fight counting as one service; so if a Force 6 spirit that owes three services is guarding a warehouse it would continue to do so until 3 fights had occurred, or until the summoner bound the spirit again to (hopefully) accumulate more services. What exactly counts as a "fight" would depend on the wording used; a high force spirit that doesn't want to spend all eternity guarding a warehouse could, in my opinion, decide that protecting the warehouse meant taking out those nasty devil rats trying to make entry, and could be considered free of its obligation once (number of services owed) separate fights with said devil rats had occurred.

That being said, I don't think I've ever run into a player trying to abuse this kind of magic to an unreasonable degree, but I guess munchkins will be munchkins.
« Last Edit: (06:15:54/06-29-16) by Herr Brackhaus »

Kiirnodel

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #21 on: (06:34:26/06-29-16) »
Ah, I see. Well, spirit power use is definitely covered by RAW on page 302 of SR5: "If the power is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long itís sustained." So at least in the "use the Concealment power on me" scenario, that'll last until the spirit is no longer bound as far as RAW is concerned.

This, I think is inherently the issue tof worry about when it comes to bound services. Normally, that service, which is defined as an unbound service, has a finite duration in the form of dusk/dawn when the spirit goes *poof* and leaves. But take away that eventual removal and you have the potential for limitless powers. Take a spirit with only 1 service remaining, you tell it to use Movement on you. Now, you have your speed increased by x Force until the "spirit is no longer bound" which is never because sustaining a spirit power is unlimited...

Now expand that to "use innate spell to cast and sustain Increase Reflexes on me." It's a sustained power, so it lasts indefinitely, right? Can of worms there.

Plus, as was pointed out in the beginning, if these powers can last indefinitely, what's the point of long-term binding?

Herr Brackhaus

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #22 on: (07:34:33/06-29-16) »
Wouldn't this be in the realm of accruing spirit index, then? Honestly, long-term binding to my mind has little to no use under RAW, so unless you're house ruling a 12-24 hour duration to make long-term binding useful I don't even see the point of it.

dposluns

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #23 on: (11:45:27/06-29-16) »
Ah, I see. Well, spirit power use is definitely covered by RAW on page 302 of SR5: "If the power is sustained, it counts as one service no matter how long itís sustained." So at least in the "use the Concealment power on me" scenario, that'll last until the spirit is no longer bound as far as RAW is concerned.

This, I think is inherently the issue tof worry about when it comes to bound services. Normally, that service, which is defined as an unbound service, has a finite duration in the form of dusk/dawn when the spirit goes *poof* and leaves. But take away that eventual removal and you have the potential for limitless powers. Take a spirit with only 1 service remaining, you tell it to use Movement on you. Now, you have your speed increased by x Force until the "spirit is no longer bound" which is never because sustaining a spirit power is unlimited...

Now expand that to "use innate spell to cast and sustain Increase Reflexes on me." It's a sustained power, so it lasts indefinitely, right? Can of worms there.

Plus, as was pointed out in the beginning, if these powers can last indefinitely, what's the point of long-term binding?

If I wanted to be argumentative about it, the additional benefits of long-term binding are that the spirit comes back after about a month if disrupted, and no longer counts against your bound spirit limit.

That said, purely from a game mechanic perspective, you are pretty much ALWAYS forced to expend karma (or essence) for anything that gives you a substantially long-lasting benefit. That's the basis of long-term binding and fettering, but also things like binding an Ally Spirit and metamagics like Quickening, Fixation and Anchoring. Being able to indefinitely buff yourself with any spell you know (not to mention other sustained creature powers like Conceal and Movement) at a cost of, say, 3000 nuyen for a force-6 spirit is incredibly beyond broken, and hard to justify as RAI from RAW not explicitly stating how long a service is capable of lasting if the spirit is bound, and mostly originating from a loophole (hence my asking about this in the first place). After reading the responses here, if I were GMing I would say that a sustained open-ended service ends when an unbound spirit would normally depart, which is the next sunup/sundown.

Tarislar

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #24 on: (22:08:06/04-12-17) »
I'm looking in the most recent copies of CRB & SG & not seeing any clarification of this.

Anyone know of an answer in errata?

My thought is that any "Sustained Power" service is used up at the next Sunrise/Sunset or at the end of the next Combat since using it during combat then becomes part of the combat.

Either way, I agree, the idea of saying.  Use Concealment/Reflexes etc etc on me forever is broken & not the intent with Binding.

Not to mention, the idea of a materialized spirit following you wherever you go to maintain LOS in the Physical Realm (both requirements IIRC) is not something I see fitting into the SR world w/o attracting a LOT of attention.

Kiirnodel

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #25 on: (22:59:33/04-12-17) »
As far as I know, there hasn't been any official clarification yet, no.

Critters do not need to maintain LOS to sustain powers. Page 394 of the Core Rulebook: "As with sustained spells, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target."

Whether they can maintain Physical powers from Astral space is debatable. The Type entry just says that physical powers cannot be used in astral space, it isn't mentioned in sustaining. I could see arguments either way.

ClaytonCross

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #26 on: (00:43:02/04-13-17) »
So I can see the need for a sun set sun rise ability for abuse of non-limited  sustained abilities. I also tend to think that even if RAW doesn't limit it most players will admit that is kind of a cheep broken way to play and that a full day/24  sustainment is still REALLY good.

I do wander if it would be reasonable to extend the time to 2 days for a player summoning a spirit covered by Spirit Affinity. It seems like if the spirit didn't mind and was looking for a reason to spend more time with you that makes since. On the other hand that in no way implies that it wants to stand around your warehouse for 2 days. I guess the neither are RAW and the "Fix" for RAI makes more since than adding to a Quality that is already good in its own right. Just curious how others would consider this quality (if at all) if the rule of sun set/rise was added in errata to prevent abuse.

Kiirnodel

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #27 on: (12:45:47/04-14-17) »
I don't see any reason why Spirit Affinity should extend the time of bound services. It already gives bonuses that potentially allows the spirit to stick around longer (more services). It doesn't also expand or alter what you can get from those services.

I think having a sustained service last until the next sunrise/sunset, whichever is later would be a decent compromise. So if it starts during daylight it lasts the rest of the day until morning, and started at night would last the rest of the night until the next sunset. With that, it still uses the cyclic nature of sunrise/sunset, plus it means spirits don't really have to keep track of time.

 

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