Author Topic: [SR5] Bound spirit service length  (Read 1959 times)

dposluns

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[SR5] Bound spirit service length
« on: (23:50:41/06-21-16) »
Core doesn't give any limit for how long a bound spirit can remain bound or perform an individual service, but SG lays out the process for long-term binding in order to get a spirit to perform one or more services for "a year and a day", so it implies there is some limit to how long a regular bound spirit will perform a service for.

So without using long-term binding, how long can a regular bound spirit perform a sustained service for? E.g. use its Concealment or Movement power on me, or cast and sustain a spell on me?

Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #1 on: (15:34:13/06-22-16) »
A Bound spirit STAYS bound until all services have been used up, and you can rebind to add more services if you want to.  Generally, a service can be maintained for about the duration of a Day (Dusk)/Night (Dawn) (so about 8-12 hours or so depending upon location and time of year), but that is likely a control that we have used since 1st Edition, so it may not be RAW.
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dposluns

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #2 on: (15:42:11/06-22-16) »
A Bound spirit STAYS bound until all services have been used up, and you can rebind to add more services if you want to.  Generally, a service can be maintained for about the duration of a Day (Dusk)/Night (Dawn) (so about 8-12 hours or so depending upon location and time of year), but that is likely a control that we have used since 1st Edition, so it may not be RAW.

It's not in RAW as far as I can tell, but "about a day" was what I was figuring made the most sense.

Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #3 on: (15:54:52/06-22-16) »
A Bound spirit STAYS bound until all services have been used up, and you can rebind to add more services if you want to.  Generally, a service can be maintained for about the duration of a Day (Dusk)/Night (Dawn) (so about 8-12 hours or so depending upon location and time of year), but that is likely a control that we have used since 1st Edition, so it may not be RAW.

It's not in RAW as far as I can tell, but "about a day" was what I was figuring made the most sense.

Look at it this way... How long does an UNBOUND spirit sustain a power or perform a task. A bound spirit will not do so for longer unless using Long Term Binding in my opinion. You want unlimited services, get an Ally Spirit. :)
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

Kiirnodel

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #4 on: (16:57:05/06-22-16) »
A Bound spirit STAYS bound until all services have been used up, and you can rebind to add more services if you want to.  Generally, a service can be maintained for about the duration of a Day (Dusk)/Night (Dawn) (so about 8-12 hours or so depending upon location and time of year), but that is likely a control that we have used since 1st Edition, so it may not be RAW.

It's not in RAW as far as I can tell, but "about a day" was what I was figuring made the most sense.

Look at it this way... How long does an UNBOUND spirit sustain a power or perform a task. A bound spirit will not do so for longer unless using Long Term Binding in my opinion. You want unlimited services, get an Ally Spirit. :)

Agreed. Until the next sunset or sunrise seems like a reasonable time for a service to last. I might go so far as to allow it to go until the next sunrise or sunset (whichever of the two is later) which would effectively double the time for a bound spirit rather than an unbound one. But more than a day seems outside the intended duration for a spirit to act without special circumstances.

Rosa

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #5 on: (21:51:55/06-22-16) »
I think I read somewhere that a bound spirit would carry on performing a service until the next sunrise/ sunset and if you wanted to extend the service it would cost you another service for every 12 hour interval. I don't recall where I read it, if it was a house rule or clarification or what it was, but it sounds reasonable.

dposluns

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #6 on: (02:24:30/06-23-16) »
I think I read somewhere that a bound spirit would carry on performing a service until the next sunrise/ sunset and if you wanted to extend the service it would cost you another service for every 12 hour interval. I don't recall where I read it, if it was a house rule or clarification or what it was, but it sounds reasonable.

Maybe another edition?

Reaver

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #7 on: (09:52:41/06-23-16) »
I think I read somewhere that a bound spirit would carry on performing a service until the next sunrise/ sunset and if you wanted to extend the service it would cost you another service for every 12 hour interval. I don't recall where I read it, if it was a house rule or clarification or what it was, but it sounds reasonable.

Yea, That's not a rule I remember from SG or CRB. It may have been somewhere else, or a house rule. It's not unreasonable either way.

my personal take on it, it that the spirit will continue to do a service until it's complete (if it's got a clear completion goal). If a mage tries to get 'smart' and assign a spirit a task with an unclear completion goal... thing get dicey after a time. Spirits are not brain dead automatons, the levels that some mages here talk about summoning, there are well smarter then the Summoner!!  Things that are generally much smarter then you can usually find a way to twist your orders against you.

For example, summoning a force 10 spirit, binding it, and then saying "Protect Me!!" could very well have drastic results...... Such as the spirit materializing, crushing a bug on you (and you!) and then disappearing with a "I saved you from that bug asshat!".   OR, the spirit suddenly appearing, and manhandles the cop that was trying to give you a ticket..... (assaulting an officer of the Law. With intent!).

Be reasonable in your requests, get a reasonable result. 
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Rosa

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #8 on: (11:43:43/06-23-16) »
Or my personal favorite, the spirit immediately uses its movement power and carry you 10 kilometres away from where you're supposed to be....."There you go boss, you're perfectly safe now" ( spirit vanishes with a puff and a cheeky grin on its face ).

Reaver

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #9 on: (16:20:28/06-23-16) »
That works even better if the movement was.... staiggt up!

Silly Spirits and their 'lack' of knowledge of human movement :D
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Beta

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #10 on: (18:05:18/06-23-16) »
For me this question has big impacts on corporate security. Consider the difference between:

 - You can bind a spirit, then have a (carefully researched, worded and reviewed) command that would keep a spirit on guard duty duty until something happens.  Perhaps you spent 3k on reagents and used up a day's time (plus possibly medical leave) for the summoner to get some number of services, but that spirit may well be staying on guard duty for the rest of the life of the summoner (assuming a few hits and it is guarding somewhere fairly quiet).

- That same spirit that took up most of a summoner's day to bind (and possibly more to recover from binding), is only good for maybe a couple of days (at half a day per service).  You've drastically cut what else the summoner can do, and are spending ~50k in reagents per year per bound patrol spirit, to let the summoner have up two spirits instead of one, have one of them harder to banish,

In the former case, you can expect bound spirits in a fair number of warehouses, lower security office spaces, etc. (there are still limits based on how many spirits a summoner can have in place, so they will still be in places where security is non-trivial, but lower than otherwise).   In the latter case, they will more commonly be kept in reserve, active patrolling would be done by simply summoned spirits or watchers in most cases, with patrol by bound spirit being saved for places that are important and remote, or really importantand in general the number of patrolling spirits you would encounter would be lower.

All IMO.

dposluns

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #11 on: (18:41:18/06-23-16) »
For me this question has big impacts on corporate security. Consider the difference between:

 - You can bind a spirit, then have a (carefully researched, worded and reviewed) command that would keep a spirit on guard duty duty until something happens.  Perhaps you spent 3k on reagents and used up a day's time (plus possibly medical leave) for the summoner to get some number of services, but that spirit may well be staying on guard duty for the rest of the life of the summoner (assuming a few hits and it is guarding somewhere fairly quiet).

- That same spirit that took up most of a summoner's day to bind (and possibly more to recover from binding), is only good for maybe a couple of days (at half a day per service).  You've drastically cut what else the summoner can do, and are spending ~50k in reagents per year per bound patrol spirit, to let the summoner have up two spirits instead of one, have one of them harder to banish,

In the former case, you can expect bound spirits in a fair number of warehouses, lower security office spaces, etc. (there are still limits based on how many spirits a summoner can have in place, so they will still be in places where security is non-trivial, but lower than otherwise).   In the latter case, they will more commonly be kept in reserve, active patrolling would be done by simply summoned spirits or watchers in most cases, with patrol by bound spirit being saved for places that are important and remote, or really importantand in general the number of patrolling spirits you would encounter would be lower.

All IMO.

Long-term binding seems like a much more economical choice in general, at the cost of (Force) karma per spirit to let a summoner assign a spirit to the guard/patrol task for "a year and a day", and not count against the summoner's limit of bound spirits. If a wage-mage's karma is valued at 2k nuyen per karma then a Force 6 spirit costs only 12k nuyen per year.

Coyote

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #12 on: (20:48:00/06-23-16) »
Long-term binding seems like a much more economical choice in general, at the cost of (Force) karma per spirit to let a summoner assign a spirit to the guard/patrol task for "a year and a day", and not count against the summoner's limit of bound spirits. If a wage-mage's karma is valued at 2k nuyen per karma then a Force 6 spirit costs only 12k nuyen per year.

I would generally say that player character runners are more likely to be involved in actions that improve their character and personal strength than their finances, while a wage-mage is far more likely to make money than to improve personally. Thus, while a character's Karma is generally considered to have one point be equivalent to 2000 Nuyen, it seems likely that a wage-mage who earns less Karma but more Nuyen in a year would have a much higher monetary cost per Karma point.

dposluns

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #13 on: (22:24:10/06-23-16) »
Long-term binding seems like a much more economical choice in general, at the cost of (Force) karma per spirit to let a summoner assign a spirit to the guard/patrol task for "a year and a day", and not count against the summoner's limit of bound spirits. If a wage-mage's karma is valued at 2k nuyen per karma then a Force 6 spirit costs only 12k nuyen per year.

I would generally say that player character runners are more likely to be involved in actions that improve their character and personal strength than their finances, while a wage-mage is far more likely to make money than to improve personally. Thus, while a character's Karma is generally considered to have one point be equivalent to 2000 Nuyen, it seems likely that a wage-mage who earns less Karma but more Nuyen in a year would have a much higher monetary cost per Karma point.

Well, I'm not entirely up on all of the lore or fluff around what karma actually is, but I don't generally question the exchange rate. Presumably there are ways to accrue karma in normal lives without running the shadows. That force-1 spell focus you buy for 4k nuyen for cost the talismonger that created it 1 karma, after all, so if that karma was worth much more to them than 2k nuyen it wouldn't make much sense for them to artifice it and have it resold.

Rosa

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Re: [SR5] Bound spirit service length
« Reply #14 on: (22:56:52/06-23-16) »
Karma is a thing for pc's only, npc's generally have whatever karma they ( or the gm ) need to have.

In regards to corpsec,  I think that long term bound spirits will generally be found at very important high security installations only. Other installations will have mostly passive astral security and lower force summoned spirits and watchers, if they have any spirits at all. There's a reason why magical security is very very expensive. Also don't forget that in many ways dual natured para critters perform many of the same needs that spirits does and are generally much cheaper in regards to upkeep.